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1851 Navy & beginner

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by 1861, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    In his 1859 book "The Prairie Traveler", Randolph Marcy recommended that those outfitting for a trip across the American West would be better served with an "Army" revolver instead of the "Navy" version. His reasoning was along the same lines that you mention.

    https://archive.org/details/prairietravelerh01marc

    Look at pages 165-166.
     
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  2. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    Wait....a guy writes a book in 1859 about a gun marked as an "1860 Army?" :scrutiny:
     
  3. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    No, it isn't marked "1860 Army", the large bore revolvers, including the Walker and the Dragoon, had already become known as "Army" to distinguish them from the smaller caliber 1851 Navy before the 1860 Army was released. Look at the pdf, that book is legit from 1859.
     
  4. Fingers McGee

    Fingers McGee Member

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    He s likely talking about a Dragoon
     
  5. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    Ok guys....I stand corrected. I know there were .44 caliber Colts before the Colt 1860 Army, but the post stated "army" so I equated that to the 1860 model.:thumbdown:
     
  6. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    I should have said "marketed." Even that would be referencing modern nomenclature.
     
  7. dickydalton

    dickydalton Member

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    Too close to Albuquerque for us. We've been looking in the Alamogordo area.
     
  8. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    I've heard of this instance with the grizzly. Thanks for the link!

    Most certainly a Dragoon being spoken of. Not exactly a fair comparison, but regardless gives a bit to contemplate. If a .36 cal ball (assuming the same powder was used) didn't penetrate much at all vs the Dragoon doing well going through the vitals one would think the "1858" or 1860 would be at least in the middle, though I'd venture to guess much deeper than midway.

    And I'm not one to care much for a ball from a revolver. I like short bullets.
     
  9. whughett

    whughett Member

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    Velocity versus caliber, caliber versus velocity, in the days of back powder velocity was finite, only so much energy could be derived from black. Big slower solid projectiles were the norm. I've read that the Walker came about because Captian Walker wanted a revolver that would kill a horse, the Paterson was a 36, apparently they were doing a lot of fighting with Mexican cavalry, armed with lances and it's a lot easier to hit the horse. Ironically Walker was him self killed with a lance.
    The 45ACP was adopted by the Army for much the same reason, the smaller 38 caliber wasn't stopping rage, or drug infused tribesman.

    Today we understand bullet construction and velocity is the key to stopping power, not so much caliber.
     
  10. 1861

    1861 Member

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    What holds the loading lever on Walker? Are they still notorious for falling, or has Uberti somehow adressed that problem in recent years? Thanks.
     
  11. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    According to my Lyman handbook the velocity of a ~max load with a ball is about the same for a .36 as it is for a .44 using the same powder.
     
  12. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    There's a small latch near the frame that holds the lever. The Uberti drops just as the originals. The Ranger's were known to tie a piece of leather cord around it. Today people have reshaped the latch and made it secure.
     
  13. whughett

    whughett Member

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    LOL. In my case on my Walker a trip to GoonsGunWorks. That sucker don't drop with 50 grain loads.
     
  14. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    Deleted by author as redundant. Sorry.
     
  15. whughett

    whughett Member

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    In such case would seem the heavier larger diameter bullet would be the more lethal.
     
  16. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    Anything with little to no expansion, to my mind, is improved by caliber. But then Tutt likely died from a .36 cal ball at a low velocity. We see the NATO 9mm rounds aren't very effective with many soldiers preferring the old M1911 instead. I know I would!
     
  17. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Hi all,
    just got Kirst Konverter :cool:
    Can I now dry fire it?
    It's harder now to cock the hammer / rotate the cylinder. Does that mean I'll have some fitting to do or is that normal?
    Thanks!
     
  18. Sistema1927

    Sistema1927 Member

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    No, do not dry fire.

    Yes, you might have some fitting.
     
  19. 1861

    1861 Member

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    It's the type of conversion cylinder with a ring and a "door". The hammer hits that fat pin (if that's called a pin) which slides back and forth, it's not fixed like nipples. That's why I thought that I might dry fire it. Everyone agrees with Sistema1927 or...? Thanks :)
     
  20. J-Bar

    J-Bar Member

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    Put snap caps into the chambers, then you can probably dry fire without endangering the hammer or firing pin.

    The Kirst converter should be able to rotate as freely as the percussion cylinder that came with your revolver. It makes sense that you would have to do some fitting. Remember the rule--"Make the part fit the gun, don't make the gun fit the part!" If you remove metal from your gun, then the percussion cylinder may not fit properly. So GENTLY, SLOWLY, polish down the spots on the Kirst that are rubbing the frame.

    Are you familiar with snap caps?
    What caliber Kirst converter did you get?
     
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  21. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Thanks for the advice!
    I'm not familiar with snap caps, looking at the pics now, trying to figure out just what that is.
    My Navy is .36, so converter is 38.
     
  22. J-Bar

    J-Bar Member

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    A snap cap is simply a dummy round with a spring loaded plate in the primer pocket which absorbs the shock of the falling hammer. But, there is more than one kind of .38 cartridge.

    I went to the Kirst website, and apparently your conversion cylinder is built for the .38 Long Colt cartridge which is a different length than the common .38 Special cartridge. The website says a .38 Special wadcutter will fit into your cylinder's chambers but that you should not fire .38 Specials in your conversion cylinder.

    Now, you may be able to use a .38 Special snap cap, which should be easy to find and purchase online. Even if you have to trim down the snap cap's length, that should be no problem. Here is a link to one place that offers .38 Long Colt snap caps, which will be harder to locate.

    I have used Kirst cylinders in .45 Colt and loved them, but I have no experience with them in .36/.38 caliber guns. There may be folks reading this that can address the issues between .38 Special and .38 Long Colt in the Kirst cylinder. Otherwise, I personally would bow to the manufacturer's instructions.

    Link to .38 Long Colt snap caps:

    http://onlineoutpost.net/product/2-x-palo-verde-dry-fire-practice-snap-caps-38-colt-pistol-rifle/
     
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  23. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
  24. J-Bar

    J-Bar Member

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    The gun's hammer and the firing pin in the conversion cylinder, even though they have been hardened, will eventually deform unless that falling hammer blow is cushioned a bit. Live primers in a cartridge, and the spring loaded dummies in a snap cap, provide a cushioning effect, just as the soft brass percussion caps help protect the nipple and hammer face when firing the gun as it was originally designed.

    You can probably click your Kirst cylinder around, dry fire six pretend shots a day, and not cause any damage for (maybe?) a few years. If you dry-fire like many competitors do, 1,000 snaps a week, you could start to see damage to the metal surfaces pretty soon. How soon? I don't know. I never dry-fired one to failure.

    I do not want to take away your fun. If you can afford to replace a hammer or the conversion cylinder when they eventually deform, then dry fire away and enjoy the fantasies!! :thumbup:
     
  25. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Thanks J-Bar, I'll order snap caps very soon, I don't want to cause any damage, I understand now. I have fantasies about girls, not about guns, I just enjoy the sound and feel of cylinder rotating and hammer hitting ;)
     
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