1858 rem shoots high

[Idaho shooter]

Ok guys,, I need some info. I have gotten my Pietta .44 shooting good groups, but six inches high at 25yards. All the adjustment is out of the sights. The front sight is fairly high, but I suppose o see it could be replaced with an even taller one. Did they use a different sight picture back in the day, or perhaps I am missing the boat, and trying t o aim a gun that was meant to point and shoot? What is the experience on this shooting high?

 

[Stormson]

What load are you using? Too heavy a load could be causing the muzzle to rise before the ball/conical leaves the barrel?

 

[Cowhide Cliff]

I believe it's fairly common for those to shoot high, I've had a couple that did though not as bad as you describe.

As far as sight picture back in the day, the adjustable sights are not the way they were made "back in the day". Those with the adjustable sights are a modern addition the Italians took liberty in making and calling a target model which I think is a joke because I have found the ones made in the traditional styling I can shoot much more accurate because the sights are finer.

 

[Idaho shooter]

I am using 24grains of 777

 

[D. Buck Stopshere]

Meaning no disrespect, but are you shooting from the bench over sandbags to reduce holding errors?

Since you have an adjustable rear sight, remember to move the rear sight in the direction you want the bullet to go.

Not knowing what you do know about shooting may mean that I'm telling you things you already know. Regrets, if that is the case.

Ordinarily, the high front sight causes the shooter to shoot lower than the bullseye. Then, the owner will file the front sight down until the group is dead-center like this one below.

Are you using a center-hold or six-o-clock hold on the target?

Relaxing the grip the moment the trigger is pulled will cause the shots to print high. Wrist and elbow should both be locked.

If accuracy is your aim (excuse the pun), use reduced loads, 18 to 22 grains volume-measure of 777, plus a measure of cream of wheat to seat the ball as close to the face of the cylinder.

If this strikes your fancy, forget about the felt wads and smear any kind of grease, mineral, animal, vegetable on top of the ball, and have at the bench again. To better your group use GOEX, Schuetzen, or Swiss black powder.

All serious NMLRA line competition shooters use this method and shoot black powder only.

This 25 yd offhand group was fired with my Navy Arms Remington Army Deluxe Model .44 caliber made by Pietta in the mid '80's. I believe the load was 18 grains of GOEX 3FG, cream of wheat, a .457 RB & T/C Bore Butter on top.

This revolver, now known as the "Shooters Model" today, is Pietta's most accurate revolver manufactured, and second only to Pedersoli in Italian workmanship for "As-Issued" revolver accuracy.

 

[webrx]

not unusual, my 1858 shoots 6 inches high at 10 yards, IIRC these were sighted in to be dean on at 75 yards in the old days and from what I have read, they still are.

ooops did not notice you said you had adjustable sights. I dont have those so dont know if the above still applies.

Dave

 

[Branko_D]

I would imagine someone configure the sights for 25 yard target shooting. Maybe try loading it with round ball atop a smallish charge like 20-ish grains, and shooting at 25 yard target with a 6 o clock hold.

 

[dr1445]

i have a 70's uberti target with the same problem. the front sight is an insert that slips in from the muzzle end. i am working on a new taller insert filed from a bolt. when i get the revolver back from goons place i will finish it up.

 

[kBob]

Just out of satiable curtiosity, if one has the garden variety Pietta with fixed front sight, would it be practical to remove the front sight , dove tail the barrel like some of the "nicer" NMAs and slip a windage (drift) adjustable dove tail sight in there with what ever starting height one wants?

How about cutting down the existing front sight, notching the stub front to rear and sodering a section of coin in there of the right eight.

How about cutting the thinned down portion of the sight off, tapping the stub and setting a fine threaded screw in there, with permanent lock tite, cut it down to the right height, dress it up with a file and stone to get rid of the threads blue or blacken that puppy and call it macaroni?


I suppose you could take a belt sander to the top strap and "lower" the rear sight just teasing on that one.

-kBob

 

[dr1445]

i did a couple of front sight dovetails on my 58's. you need a few needle files, two flat, one with the 2 edges sanded down so they do not cut used to cut the slot. then a needle triangle file with one edge sanded to no longer cut, to cut the dovetail. i filed down the oem sight and then started the dovetail slot in it's place.

 

[BCRider]

If this is the target model with the adjustable rear I'm thinking that it's intended to be used with a 6 o'clock hold on a set size of target at a given range consistent with the rules of the target shooting organizations. So if you're using a straight on hold it's entirely possible that you're running out of rear sight adjustment. Especially if the range of adjustment is very slight.

If the rear sight has a replaceable blade it might be worth dressing that blade lower or getting another one and doing this to achieve a dead on "center aim" hit. If it doesn't use an easily made and replaced rear blade then your only other option would be a different and taller front post.

On revolvers shooting lighter "target" loads will make the hits print HIGHER than a hot load. So it's not the load amount that will alter this.

Mind you I wonder if the burn rate characteristics of the 777 is causing a different sort of recoil which is producing a higher POI. Perhaps see if you can get some proper black powder and try it.

Now if 777 and Pyrodex is all you can find in your area then I guess you're stuck with setting the sights to work with the powder you can buy.

 

[Ephraim Kibbey]

You might compare pictures of your revolver with pictures of other brands and years of manufacture as some 1858's have a MUCH taller front sight than others:

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

Here is a photo of an original Remington that was converted to shoot cartridges. Notice how short the front sight is. That is the way they were made.





Here is a photo of my EuroArms Remmie that I bought back in 1975. Notice how tall the front sight is. That is NOT the sight that came with the gun. The original front sight was much shorter, much like you see on the original, antique Remington above. With the original front sight, the gun always shot high. So when I decided to buy a cartridge conversion cylinder for it, the first thing I did was change the front sight. I had a gunsmith mount a standard Uberti front sight on it. The original front sight was dovetailed in, but he had to open up the dovetail to fit the Uberti sight. Once it had its new, taller front sight, but before I bought the cartridge conversion cylinder, I took it to the range to see where it was printing. At reasonably close range, about 10 or 15 yards, with a 44 caliber ball over about 30 grains of FFg it printed right where I wanted it too, pretty much to point of aim. So then I went ahead and bought the conversion cylinder that you see in the gun now.

What load are you using? Too heavy a load could be causing the muzzle to rise before the ball/conical leaves the barrel?

News Flash: The muzzle ALWAYS rises before the ball leaves the barrel. ALWAYS! It does not matter how light the powder charge is, or how light the ball is, the muzzle ALWAYS rises before the ball/conical/bullet leaves the barrel. Boresight a revolver some time and you will see that the front sight pushes the bore lower than the point of aim. That is to compensate for the amount the muzzle will rise as the ball travels the length of the barrel.

So. A heavier load will always cause the muzzle to rise more before the bullet leaves the barrel than a lighter load will. More powder/heavier projectile, the muzzle will rise more. I have never used 777, but it is pretty well known that it is about 15% more energetic than a similar charge of real Black Powder. So one thing you can do right off to lower the point of impact is to lower the powder charge.

I usually shoot 45 Schofield rounds out of my converted Remmie. About 28 grains of FFg under a 200 grain .452 bullet. Since the bullet is heavier than a ball, the recoil is more, and the muzzle rises a bit more than it would if I was shooting a ball. I just hold at 6:00 O'Clock on the target and the bullet goes where I want it to.




I downloaded this photo from the Cabellas website of a target version of the Remington they are selling. Is this what yours looks like? If so, that's a pretty hefty front sight. If your rear sight is cranked all the way down, about the only thing you can do to lower the point of impact is to either lighten your load and/or build up the front sight.




The other thing to bear in mind is that the trajectory of a bullet from a revolver will cross the line of sight at two points. One point will be fairly close to the muzzle, the other point will be out some distance. Exactly where any revolver prints, with any specific load, will also depend on where the target is placed relative to those two points. At the midpoint between those two points, the trajectory will be at its highest.

You might want to try shooting at a couple of different distances to see what is going on. 25 yards is pretty far out to be sighting in a revolver.

 

[Idaho shooter]

Reply to Driftwood

That is exactly the gun that I have! I was not able to get real black powder when I got the gun, but have just gotten some Old Eynsford 3f, so will give it a try. Yes the rear sight is cranked all the way down. The gun groups well from a sandbag rest at 25yards, but even using six o'clock hold, it shoots about six inches high. Will experiment with new powder, lighter loads. Thanks!

 

[Joshboyfutre]

I'm not sure how accurate this information is but from my understanding they designed them like that on purpose back in the day so that they could shoot up to 100 yards at a man sized target apparently at 100 yards they hit dead on like I said though that's just scuttlebutt

 

[Patrick R]

I have the same Pietta Cabelas 1858 BP revolver. Shot about 8" high at 25 yards. I had to build up the front sight 1/8" higher. Then it would shoot a good 6 o'clock center group. I use 20 grain bp, 15 grain corn meal. I really enjoy shooting it now. Matches are fun.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

I'm not sure how accurate this information is but from my understanding they designed them like that on purpose back in the day so that they could shoot up to 100 yards at a man sized target apparently at 100 yards they hit dead on like I said though that's just scuttlebutt

Well, first of all, exactly what does 'back in the day' mean? That phrase is so overused it is meaningless. Secondly, the OP has an adjustable sight on his Remington, the originals were made with fixed sights, not adjustable.

Yes, cartridge revolvers made in the 19th Century did have very tall front sights. I have seen various reports of what distance they were regulated to, cannot come up with any specific information. Seventy five yards sticks in my memory, but I have no official documentation to back that up. As I said earlier, a tall front sight keeps the line of the bore depressed below the point of aim, so that muzzle rise will partially compensate for the line of the bore being depressed.

But it is not that simple. A revolver will recoil differently, depending on who is shooting it, and how he holds it, not to mention the load being fired will also affect the amount of muzzle rise. In the past I have filed down front sights to raise the point of impact with some of my revolvers for a specific load fired at a specific distance. I don't do that anymore, I simply adjust my hold for the range I am shooting at.

 

[Joshboyfutre]

Well, first of all, exactly what does 'back in the day' mean? That phrase is so overused it is meaningless. Secondly, the OP has an adjustable sight on his Remington, the originals were made with fixed sights, not adjustable.

Yes, cartridge revolvers made in the 19th Century did have very tall front sights. I have seen various reports of what distance they were regulated to, cannot come up with any specific information. Seventy five yards sticks in my memory, but I have no official documentation to back that up. As I said earlier, a tall front sight keeps the line of the bore depressed below the point of aim, so that muzzle rise will partially compensate for the line of the bore being depressed.

But it is not that simple. A revolver will recoil differently, depending on who is shooting it, and how he holds it, not to mention the load being fired will also affect the amount of muzzle rise. In the past I have filed down front sights to raise the point of impact with some of my revolvers for a specific load fired at a specific distance. I don't do that anymore, I simply adjust my hold for the range I am shooting at.

Lol what I personally mean by back in the day is when these were made 1851, 58, & 60. 1830- Civil war period is when these guns would have been used regularly basically.

 

[actionpistol327]

Mine also shoots high. In general with pistols the faster the load the lower it shoots. This is because the bullet exits quicker on the muzzle rise. Slower has opposite effect

 

[PapaG]

I took my Remmy and filed a dovetail in the barrel, made a base to fit. Then drilled and tapped it 6-32, threaded a piece of brazing rod and screwed it into the base. Shoot, file, shoot,file til it was dead on. Still there 37 years later. Cost, a little sweat.

 

[GooseGestapo]

I was into bp back in the '80's. Shot a number of Colt replicas and one Remington replica.
Unless altered, they ALL shot high. Legend had it that they were regulated to be "point blank" to 200 yds by aiming at the large belt buckles worn by soldiers. The adjustable sights on "artillery" models were reputed to be able to deliver "suppression" fire to 600yds.
Again, I can't vouch for the veracity of the information. Just what I recall hearing.