1858 Remington Repro Reliability Mods?

[flmason]

Just curious what reliability mods are most popular for the 1858 Remington Army's? Anyone worked one over?

Clearly the wire spring for the trigger and bolt is the first and easiest mod.

Would a higher quality mainspring be pit stop #2?

What of the hand spring. (That's the one that's my personal main bugaboo, since I've had them break in Colt style C&B revolvers.)

Any other experiences or mods would be interesting to hear about as well.

Just sprang for a Target Model, so naturally I'm all "worked up", LOL!

 

[Das Jaeger]

If you want Mod direction

go to CASS website , those guys are Mod crazy there .
They way I see it is , if aint broke , don't fix it . My guns run very well , I break very little to nothing on any of them . Hand spring , but thats rare .
Can't re-invent the mouse trap , or can you ?
That is the beauty of these cap and ball guns , is how they work , simple yet complicated , refined but rough . They wrok great just as they are too .

Das Jaeger , Congratualtions on your Target Model, those are cool too .
Who am I kidding ,all these guns are cool .

 

[flmason]

Ah well, that hand spring has me worried. Have had them break in less than a pound of powder.

Don't particularly want to reinvent the mouse trap. I'm just spoiled to Ruger levels of reliability, LOL!

Guess I should know better than to expect that from less modern SA's.

Yeah, those target sights look like crap from the side, but since I can't say what load I'm going to go for, figured I spend the extra few dollars up front rather than having to try to install adjustable sights or tweak fixed ones later. Every fixed sight gun I've ever owned has, luckily, been close enough for the gun's use. But I always feel like I'm making a mistake buying fixed sights for anything but CCW guns or guns that are going to be used mostly for point shooting.

 

[Das Jaeger]

there you go

you said it first , hee hee hee, it aint no Tuarus Raging Bull are they , nope , nor can you make one into one even with Mods . It is what it is .

Das Jaeger

 

[Smokin_Gun]

You'll like the target model good choice...out of all the NMA Rems I had I asked my Son a couple years ago which Rev he favored that day that he liked best. Hands down he chose the Pietta 1858 NMA .44 Target Model...that was his Christmas present when we got back from N.Y. that year. Still his favored...you'll hang on to that one...mine was every bit as accurate as either of my ROAs.
Parts are easy to get. If a spring breaks on ya get some feeler guage stock .018" or so and cut out a new one...use an industrial razor blade(one sided)to tap the old hand spring out. Tap the new one in.

Congrads on the New Remington...

 

[flmason]

@ Smokin_Gun - Thanks for the tip on hand spring replacement. Never though of using feeler stock.

Yes, I'm hoping I'll like the adjustable sights. Would've preferred a side profile more like the Uberti or standard Blackhawk sights. Seems like the Pietta profile would be more prone to hanging up in a holster. Though have to admit, I rarely use holsters for anything but CCW guns. I'm pretty compulsive about trying to keep the finishes nice, LOL!

 

[flmason]

@Das Jaeger - Yeah that's for sure, LOL! Still, folks did fight at least one war with these things. I've often wondered if the modern repros just literally aren't made as well, despite the more modern metals.

I've read some folks that claim the original springs in real 1800's era C&B Colts are *still* functioning today. I find it hard to believe if the experiences I've had with repro springs represent *better* metals, LOL! Of course if a gun sits in a box for 150 years... I guess you could open the box up... cock it and claim, "See, still workin' fine". LOL!

I have however, personally put uncounted rounds through Blackhawks with no problems. Only had one used one I bought go out of time... when I opened it up... clearly had been amateur gunsmithed.

So for me, the first time I had a hand spring break, that was a new event. Most smokeless guns I've owned have never had a parts failure.

 

[peacemaker45]

I break stuff. Then again I'm a cowboy shooter, so my guns don't exactly get babied. But I'm not sure i've had any gun that didn't have one issue or another that needed correcting.

I also can't stand to shoot the pre-assembled kits they sell as "guns," these days. Near as I can tell, they just slap 'em together, and leave the final fitting to the owner. Of course, to get a gun to even halfway run under such circumstances, they seem to use ford suspension parts for mainsprings, just to overcome all the excess friction.

All that's to say that my irons see plenty of work. I don't know a great deal about the remmies, though.

 

[mykeal]

SG - Give me one of those target Rems for Christmas (or my birthday in October) and it'll be my favorite gun, too!

 

[madcratebuilder]

SG's tip for using feeler gauge stock for hand spring replacement is right on. Works great and is bullet proof. I have done several hands with feeler gauge steel and zero failures.
While your at it, make sure the hand slot in the frame is smooth, some revolvers can be rough as a cob. The Ruger plunger mod is great for open tops, I have done two Pietta's but well not do my 2nd gen Colts.

The rear sight on the Pietta 1858 target model has two screws for windage adjustment, two very tiny screws. You need to check them on every reload until you find the sweet spot and then clean them and loc-tite them.

 

[wittzo]

My mainspring broke in my Pietta after I shot it about 100 times..I have 2 extra cylinders and I shoot all three cylinders twice and then I clean the pistol. The 6th time or so, I was soaking the pistol in hot soapy water in the sink and the mainspring fell out in two pieces. It had snapped in two. I bought a lighter "competition" spring. So far, so good, even though the spring feels cheap and doesn't look right. It's so thin, I could hardly tighten the spring on it without it acting funky. I take the spring out when I deep clean the pistol, now.

 

[flmason]

@macratebuilder - when you make the feeler stock springs, do you anneal the metal to form and then reharden, or just cut to shape and bend it?

Have to admit I've not made springs from spring stock of any sort, so guess I have to ask the obvious questions.

As for the Ruger plunger mod... do you just order and install the Ruger plunger parts?

Someone mentioned making trigger/hand springs from safety pins? Same question about heat treatment? Heat and form or just bend it and use as is?

 

[BHP FAN]

I bent and used on the safety pins,and never had one wear out,but nowadays you can get real ones from Wolff springs,so I no longer bother.

 

[Hellgate]

flmason,
I have made replacement hand springs by cutting a section of bobby pin and with a chisel, removing the old spring and then peening in the new bobby pin spring. It actualyl was a stronger spring than the original but I used a thicker bobby pin. So far, every hand spring I have broken has been on a Colt repro and most if not all of them were ASM makes.

 

[flmason]

What's an "ASM makes"? Have to admit I'm drawing a blank on those letters.

 

[flmason]

@Hellgate - which sort of bobby pin do you mean... the wirey ones with the brown coating or the fancy, usually silvery, flat ones?

 

[Hellgate]

ASM makes means the Armi Sam Marco guns. They are no longer made but were widely supplied to EMF, Traditions, and Dixie Gun Works.

flmason: I just remember going into my daughters bathroom drawer where she had a bunch of hair clips, grabbers, "squishies" or "scrunchies", and bobby pins and matched the width of the bobby pins to the width of the hand springs. The one that fit the bill was painted red. Go figure. The majority of them were painted black but they appear to be made of spring steel.

 

[Hawkeye748]

FLmason

I know you will enjoy what every model you decide to get. You asked an earlier post, what model to get, and other questions here. You are getting my view on both here.

You need 1858 Shooter's model, not target or other model.

Pietta makes this and they spend a little more time on these to get timing and cylinder/barrel line up much better, stone the hand slots, etc. It is pricer, but in my view worth the extra money. This gun has won many national and international shooting awards. Not the current title holder, but still one that most folks can afford if they want authenticity and an accurate gun out of the box.

The front sight is the only adjustable feature, a little taller and dovetailed. Adjustments are done with a punch hammer and file and file to bring sights to POA. After load work up, you file off the dovetail sight portion flat with the barrel, looks like an original fixed sight. Haven't priced these in a while, but last looked they could be had for about $500 if you look around.

You ask about breakage. You have found the problem many of us heavy users have found: mderate use will lead to breakage of the metal in Italian repros.

This is a simple fix. The metal will hardern enough to wear much better and reduced breakage. A simple product called Kasnit is what I use. To use it, you need a propane or Mapp gas torch. I prefer MAP Gas because much higher temps are possible. Just follow the directions on the package. I go a bit overboard and 2-3 over the recommended treatments. End result is that I have not had a harden part break in over`10 years. My guns get what I consider heavy use. Will work on the Colt repros also.

 

[flmason]

Thanks for the tips Hawkeye748. I'd already ordered the Target model Pietta by the time I saw this. Should be here tommorrow or next day. Couldn't convince myself not to have adjustable sights since I may want to experiment with various loads including conicals and perhaps even an R&D cylinder or similar.

Granted, even when it comes to Rugers, I like the smooth lines of the New Vaquero, but would invariably buy the Super Blackhawk first and get the Vaquero as a later addition to the collection, LOL!

Since I actually plan to use this gun as a shooter (as opposed to purely target or CAS type things) I figured I better go with adjustable sights.

Didn't realize there was a "Shooter's Model" at a higher quality level though. But at $500 then I'd go the extra trouble with the paperwork (I'm in Ca.) and get a Ruger.

Well, hopefully the one they send me is reasonably well made. Would hate to get into a "gotta 'smith it or send it back" ordeal right from the get go. (Haven't done any shooting in years, just getting back into it. So for a while this'll be all I have here locally.)

Anyway, I'm just hoping to get or make this gun field reliable. Having a CVA '61 Navy that did break the hand spring in less than 1 lb. of Pyrodex, I was hoping now, some 20 years later the quality of the metallurgy had come up to par since CAS had gotten popular. I.e. I was hoping the Italian shops were aiming at a market of users that actually plan to shoot the guns more than look at them. (Though yes, I do tend to go the extra yard to keep them nice looking. )

 

[madcratebuilder]

@macratebuilder - when you make the feeler stock springs, do you anneal the metal to form and then reharden, or just cut to shape and bend it?

No heat treating at all. Cut, file and bend. I'll try the bobby-pin mod some time. Sounds like a lot less work. I've used bobby-pins on other guns and they do work and seem to hold up well.

 

[rcflint]

Putting a Ruger hand spring in a Colt type revolver is easier, but requires drilling a hole for the spring and plunger, and removing the leaf spring from the hand, and often, replacing the hand with a new one made of better steel and a rear surface that is straight instead of curved.

I have put Ruger coil & plunger springs in a Remington as well, but it requires drilling a hole from the outside, and using a retaining screw, so it shows. Look at a Ruger Bearcat to see the result. A Colt type hides the spring and plunger hole with the backstrap.

 

[flmason]

@RCFlint - Now that's a serious approach. Did you make the plunger parts or just order the Ruger replacements?

@BHP_Fan - About those safety pin springs... did you unwind the coil in them at their apex and shape them overall like the Wolff spring or just look for a pin that had a loop big enough to put the screw through? Given that the loop is a coil, I'm wondering if the fact that it sits a little angled has any negative effects? And also whether you widened it up enough that it couldn't rotate around the holding screw?

Given the amount of effort that folks put into making these reliable, I can tell two things. One, lots of us are into the old-timey looks. But two... we all like that Ruger reliability.

Surprises me that the Old Army isn't the best selling cap and ball going, other than it's Blackhawk style price.

 

[rcflint]

The spring and plunger are Ruger parts. I have made longer plungers for guns where I didn't make a new straight backed hand, as the back curve reached further forward and extended the plunger too far in past the edge of the hole and allowed it to tip out of line.

I made the hands from 4140 steel, which is a harder steel than the Italians use, particularly if the revolver has a Kirst or R&D cylinder, which are much harder steel than the Cap & Ball cylinders.