1858 remmy-safety notch or empty chamber?

[old hunter]

I've noticed on my remington when i put the hammer down in the safety notch the bolt comes up and and rests on the cylinder is this normal? Wouldn't this scratch the cylinder? So instead of using the safety notch i just leave the hammer down on an empty chamber. My Pietta remington is very accurate with 30 to 35 grains FFF Goex, 454 roundball, wad under ball and #10 caps.

 

[Mike 56]

My 58 Remington is the same i carry mine on one of the safety pins with no problems. Mine likes 23gr Geox, wad, 454 balls with the balls greased. The next time i shoot it i will give 30-35gr a try.

Mike

 

[Tommygunn]

Yes, it is normal for the bolt to come up. It will scratch if you rotate the cylinder as you raise the bolt, but if you align it right, the bolt will just rest against it. Colt revolvers are the same way.
In fact on some revolvers, like Manhattan and Leech & Rigdon, extra cylinder notches were milled in halfway between the normal ones, giving the cylinders 12 of these sockets, and the bolt would be what locked the cylinder up between chambers.
IIRC the Starr revolver did this as well.
There's nothing wrong with keeping the hammer down on a empty chamber if you don't want to risk scratching the cylinder; it's your gun and your choice.
For my part, most of my guns have some wear and have some little spots here and there, but they still look nice over all. I really don't worry about it too much.

 

[timothy75]

I always carry mine in the saftey notch and havent had scratching occur.

 

[DuncanSA]

The carrying of revolvers with the hammer on an empty chamber has always struck me as complete nonsense. These weapons are "six guns" and were designed to have 6 loaded chambers - most certainly during the civil war, can you imagine a cavalry trooper going into battle with his firepower voluntarily reduced by some 16%? Both Colt and Remington made provision for safety of a fully loaded revolver by means of notches or pins.

I acknowledge the safety aspect of an unloaded chamber, just think however how much safer the weapon would be with all 6 unloaded! One can really move into wonderland if you apply the same safety criteria to automatic pistols - maybe have the top round in the mag or chamber made of wood?

When engaged in cowboy action shooting I of course comply with the rules, but am well aware of how ridiculous this one is.

 

[rusty bubbles]

This is where my invention comes in- the 7 shot revolver- one chamber permanently empty, and 6 loaded!

 

[brentn]

I agree with duncan, i had no idea that modern revolvers or even the SAA had a safety notch. That being the case I would defenitly carry with 6 and the hammer on the safety notch.

7 chambers in my opinion is a bad idea, as the 7th changes nothing, its still one empty chamber out of a whole, thus what we are discussing. Plus, 7 shots in .44/.45 I don't think will fit.

 

[mykeal]

When the hammer is on the "safety" notch the bolt rests on the surface of the cylinder, in between the cylinder notches that hold it in place when the chambers are in battery. The cylinder is free to rotate save for the resistance of the hammer in the "safety" notch. Any disturbance which results in hammer displacement would allow the cylinder to rotate into battery and a loaded, charged and capped chamber to come under the hammer, which, not being in half cock, is free to fall.

If, on the other hand, the hammer is on an empty chamber, the bolt is in a cylinder notch, not resting on the cylinder surface. The cylinder is prevented from rotating by two impediments: the bolt and the hammer. In the event the hammer is displaced the cylinder cannot rotate into battery without the hammer going completely to half cock, unlike the situation where the bolt is between cylinder notches.

Clearly the situation where the hammer is resting on an empty cylinder is safer than where it is on a "safety" notch. Whether either or both are "safe enough" depends on the likelihood of displacing the hammer; in the one case, just enough to clear the "safety" notch, and in the other case to go nearly to half cock.

Ridiculous? Well, we are each entitled to our opinion. If you don't mind, I'll opt for the measure that provides, in my opinion, just a little more safety. And if that means that you think I'm being 'rediculous', well, I'll try to live with that.

 

[old hunter]

Thanks for your replies it's good to know my remmy isn't broke. I'm usually climbing trees and in very thick brush while deer hunting and my remmy is riding in an open top crossdraw and subject to getting knocked around a little. I probably need to get a good flap holster for hunting i'm sure it would protect the hammer better than an open top.

 

[Jim K]

I find it hard to think of anything that could displace the hammer from the safety notch on a Remington or from the safety pin on a Colt. It is nearly impossible to turn the cylinder with either system. (Many Colt repros don't have the safety pins, although the hammers are usually notched for them!)

With a SAA, it is also possible to carry the gun with the firing pin down between case heads; this is not bad with smaller cases, but with the .45 the cylinder can turn too easily. In any case, with the SAA, I recommend carry with the hammer down on an empty chamber.

(Comparisons with Civil War conditions are not valid. Those guys were young and hard, and they knew full well they might not live to see the next minute, let alone the next day or next year. They lived with danger, so the minor danger of carrying a fully capped revolver was insignificant compared to the danger of not being ready to respond to an attack. Today, at the range, we are not going to experience an ambush or have enemy soldiers opening fire on us; there is no reason to take chances and engage in dangerous practices.)

Jim

 

[mykeal]

I find it hard to think of anything that could displace the hammer from the safety notch on a Remington or from the safety pin on a Colt.

Replacing the weapon in a poorly fitting holster - the hammer can catch on the edge of the holster and be partially cocked (allowing the cylinder to rotate due to friction against the holster), then falling forward when the gun slips into the holster, coming down on the capped nipple...

I'm dreaming, of course - that never happens.

 

[TomK]

It's the LAW

Mykeal---You're right---with firearms of any type, Murphy's Law is STRICTLY ENFORCED at ALL TIMES! (Anything that CAN go wrong WILL go wrong---at the worst possible moment!)
TomK

 

[DuncanSA]

Mykeal
You have more or less convinced me. It does "go against the grain" not to see a weapon utilised to its full potential, but I agree that Murphys Law is always waiting to zap us for any laxity.

I had not considered that the cylinder lock would also prevent accidental rotation of the cyclinder, in addition to the Remington safety notches or the rather inadequate Colt safety pins. In any event I have always loaded 5 in compliance with local range rules.

As an incidental observation I would like to say what a pleasure it is to discuss and sometimes disagree as we do on THR in a civilized and polite manner. Some forums I have looking in on treat any disagreement as an excuse for abuse and general unpleasantness.

Going back to para 1 above - cancel "more or less" , you are of course quite right and I stand corrected.

 

[mykeal]

This is an issue for carry situations, that is, when the gun will be carried in a holster (or, God forbid, in your belt, as was most often the case in the late 1800's). When at the range I load all 6 on the firing line.

DuncanSA, very well said. Yes, this is a very civilized place.

 

[DixieTexian]

I kinda like it when there is a line around the cylinder where the bolt has scratched the blueing off. Of course, I like guns that look like they have been used and not just came out of the box. Old Hunter: I also carry my 1858 in an open top holster while deer hunting. The holster I use is one I made specifically for it, so it fits the gun pretty darn well. I found that a little loop over the hammer helps make it really secure, or good enough for me. I have mine tight enough that the hammer can't move as long as the gun is holstered and secured by the loop. Here is a picture of the holster I made before I put the loop on it.

 

[sundance44s]

Something I`ve always liked about revolvers DA&SA over the autoloaders ..you can keep the hammer over an empty chamber and still bring the gun into battery with just one hand , what could be a safer way to carry and draw . My vote goes to the load 5 in a sixshooter ...less chance of shooting me self in the foot .