1903 Bolt/Evtractor Question

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I recall an old safari story in which the hunter found, almost the Hard Way, that his Brevex Magnum Mauser would not single load. Not for any lack of bevel on the extractor but because there was not enough clearance in the receiver for it to flex out over the rim.
 
Jim K said:
The Mauser was intended to be magazine fed, but they can be fired single shot and the bolt should close on a hand inserted round, though it takes a bit of force. Jim
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Jim: Depends on the extractor. I don't have a picture of an altered Mauser extractor but some militaries issued Mausers that had a bevel on the extractor. I took my Dremel tool and ground a slight radius on the bottom of the issue Mauser extractor and an increased bevel. There are Mauser extractors that are magazine feed only, and then there are the altered ones that will snap over a round in the chamber. I recommend only feeding from the magazine to spare the extractor and I do that on all claw extractor rifles, including the M70. A bud of mine broke his M70 extractor through fatigue fracture by not feeding from the magazine.

Looks like the bevel was addressed in this thread:

https://www.shootersforum.com/gunsmithing/115545-fitting-mauser-extractors.html
 
Slamfire said:
Jim: Depends on the extractor. I don't have a picture of an altered Mauser extractor but some militaries issued Mausers that had a bevel on the extractor. I took my Dremel tool and ground a slight radius on the bottom of the issue Mauser extractor and an increased bevel. There are Mauser extractors that are magazine feed only, and then there are the altered ones that will snap over a round in the chamber. I recommend only feeding from the magazine to spare the extractor and I do that on all claw extractor rifles, including the M70. A bud of mine broke his M70 extractor through fatigue fracture by not feeding from the magazine.

Looks like the bevel was addressed in this thread:

https://www.shootersforum.com/gunsmithing/115545-fitting-mauser-extractors.html
Click to expand...

I'm with you on the modification on Mausers being a good idea.

As mentioned earlier, the Ruger M77 as produced for the first 30-or so years(?) of production fed 100% of its rounds with the extractor snapping over the cartridge rim. Ive not had problems with the ones Ive had, or heard of them being prone to breaking extractors, or advised to keep a spare handy. I think many never gave it much thought, and assumed that "mauser type claw extractors" are all "controlled feed", but the M77 has a spring loaded plunger ejector in the bolt face, making it impossible to feed the round under the extractor. That type ejector hasn't been mentioned as a weak point in M1 Garands, M14s, ARs or the M16 family, or any other gun with similar ejectors. Ruger eventually went to the "controlled feed" in the M77 MkII with a fixed ejector, but it makes me wonder if it was because of a problem, or because of marketability? I, for one, prefer the tang safeties. Other perceived advantages of either type don't register much with me.
 
Well, darn, this whole discussion made me pull out my low numbered 03, Springfield, 286063.

With the mag full, cutoff on, I dropped a round into the chamber and attempted to close the bolt.

FWIW, the bolt closed easily over the chambered round, with a barely audible click.
 
As mentioned earlier, the Ruger M77 as produced for the first 30-or so years(?) of production fed 100% of its rounds with the extractor snapping over the cartridge rim. Ive not had problems with the ones Ive had, or heard of them being prone to breaking extractors, or advised to keep a spare handy.
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I have an early push feed Ruger M77 and I don't like the snap over only feature. I don't know where to get a replacement, maybe you know a source for tang safety extractors? Unless you have worn barrels out on your push feed M77, then you are not going to see failure mechanisms that high volume shooters experience. I can go to the local Gunstore and I doubt I will find one used bolt gun where the barrel was shot out. I will find some where the barrel was rusted out, but I think the average bolt gun is fired less than 100 rounds.


That type ejector hasn't been mentioned as a weak point in M1 Garands, M14s, ARs or the M16 family, or any other gun with similar ejectors.
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Given time all extractors will failure. I have been on the firing line when push feed M70 extractors failed, and the match director had a kit with replacement extractors! I have seen M700 extractors fail, I have not worn out an AR15 extractor but it is a matter of time. I have had a Garand extractor break and disappear. Extractors are thin but highly stressed. This is another reason to lubricate cartridges for gas guns as rounds between extractor failure will increase. One of the many good reasons POF has fluted its E squared chamber.



In the book, Random Shots page 65, American test FN rifles were breaking their extractors sooner than Belgium test FN rifles. It turns out the Belgium rounds were coated with a light oil which broke the friction between case and chamber, reducing extraction forces . Once the American's got the oil removed, Belgium extractors broke at the same rate as American extractors! Hatcherites would consider this progress.

I would prefer not to stress any of my claw extractors un necessarily. When the pre 64's went out of production, owners who had rifles with worn out extractors were in a pickle. I have one pre 64 with a modified M1917 extractor. Gunsmiths could mill and machine a M1917 extractor to fit, but it was not cheap!. The alternative was a single shot M70, one you manually pushed the round in the chamber, and knocked out with a cleaning rod. I think I took that extractor off and put on a newly made M70 claw, extractors which I have stockpiled for the day they again become hard to find.

 
Slamfire said:

I have an early push feed Ruger M77 and I don't like the snap over only feature. I don't know where to get a replacement, maybe you know a source for tang safety extractors? Unless you have worn barrels out on your push feed M77, then you are not going to see failure mechanisms that high volume shooters experience. I can go to the local Gunstore and I doubt I will find one used bolt gun where the barrel was shot out. I will find some where the barrel was rusted out, but I think the average bolt gun is fired less than 100 rounds.




Given time all extractors will failure. I have been on the firing line when push feed M70 extractors failed, and the match director had a kit with replacement extractors! I have seen M700 extractors fail, I have not worn out an AR15 extractor but it is a matter of time. I have had a Garand extractor break and disappear. Extractors are thin but highly stressed. This is another reason to lubricate cartridges for gas guns as rounds between extractor failure will increase. One of the many good reasons POF has fluted its E squared chamber.



In the book, Random Shots page 65, American test FN rifles were breaking their extractors sooner than Belgium test FN rifles. It turns out the Belgium rounds were coated with a light oil which broke the friction between case and chamber, reducing extraction forces . Once the American's got the oil removed, Belgium extractors broke at the same rate as American extractors! Hatcherites would consider this progress.

I would prefer not to stress any of my claw extractors un necessarily. When the pre 64's went out of production, owners who had rifles with worn out extractors were in a pickle. I have one pre 64 with a modified M1917 extractor. Gunsmiths could mill and machine a M1917 extractor to fit, but it was not cheap!. The alternative was a single shot M70, one you manually pushed the round in the chamber, and knocked out with a cleaning rod. I think I took that extractor off and put on a newly made M70 claw, extractors which I have stockpiled for the day they again become hard to find.
Click to expand...


I have one M77 308 flat bolt Ive shot a couple thousand rounds through I believe. I shot it a fair bit when ammo was $140-$160/1000 for import surplus. It was used when I got it, I don't know its previous history of use. Yes, most sporters don't see a lot of use, and I agree all parts can break. I still haven't heard of tang safety m77s being problematic about breaking extractors so far. The one part ive had to replace was the striker spring in the 308, it wasn't lighting off import surplus ammo 100% (the vast majority of loads Ive shot in it). A factory new striker spring has fixed that matter.

The second part quoted was ejector. That part, solid ejector over spring powered plunger in the bolt face, sometimes being mentioned as a desirable advantage in controlled feed over push feed. For myself, Ive not had any failures to eject entirely clear of the action with plunger ejectors, even if trying to save losing the brass or just look at it when working up loads, which I think is a really bad training habit. I have had some failures of brass to clear the action in Mausers and 1903s if not run briskly. The controlled feed to me seems mostly a thing with someone short stroking the gun and trying to chamber another round, which Ive not done (I still run them briskly now in any event, back and forward, regardless of desire to check brass). I can see that it could be problematic to short stroke the gun in dangerous game situations, though in my use its not happened so far in anything ive done, and I wander around in grizzly country with older M77s now and then with no concerns about that particular issue.
 
Malamute said:
The second part quoted was ejector. That part, solid ejector over spring powered plunger in the bolt face, sometimes being mentioned as a desirable advantage in controlled feed over push feed. For myself, Ive not had any failures to eject entirely clear of the action with plunger ejectors, even if trying to save losing the brass or just look at it when working up loads, which I think is a really bad training habit.
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I have purchased old firearms with spring loaded ejectors where the ejector spring was gummed up. Probably a combination of rust, old lubricant caused the spring plunger arrangement to jam within the ejector hole causing failures to eject. I have the bolt tools for Garands/M1a's and M1 Carbines, but for anything else, getting that plunger out of the bolt face is difficult and is best done in a bag or box, so if the ejector takes off, it won't disappear! Never work on spring loaded items over plush carpet, my carpet is loaded with springs, dent balls, that disappeared when they got loose.

When I take the ejector out of my 1911 the thing is loaded with oil, bullet lube, powder residue. At least that is easy to remove, my Beretta M92FS ejector is going to have to gum up before I attempt to take that mechanism apart.
 
entropy said:
It is NOT supposed to be closed on a round dropped into the chamber. This can wreck the extractor.
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If that were really true then the rifle would not have been equipped with a magazine cutoff. Every 1903 and '03-A3 I've ever owned (and I've owned 6 of 'em over the years) has functioned fine, single-loading with the cutoff engaged. I suspect there's something wrong with the OP's bolt or extractor.
 
I have 4 CRF rifles, one is an 03A3, and all of them have zero trouble single loading a round. I have a combined total of several thousand rounds through them, mostly single loaded, and no broken extractors (yet)
 
It's interesting that I started this thread saying my rifle WON'T engage the extractor unless the round starts in the magazine. I guess I was leary of pushing too hard on the bolt handle. Anyway, I had my newly built 1903 with Lyman 48S rear sight and 17a-xnb front sight at the range a few days ago just doing some early testing and load development when even a mag-ensconced round caused the bolt to be left open. I took a deep breath, let it out and gave the bolt a good smack with the palm of my hand (expecting either to fail to enage the extractor or break it ... or not) and the extractor snapped over the case rim and extracted the empty case nicely. A little more testing revealed that the effort required to push the bolt home was not nearly as big as I presumed. After that I merrily single loaded myself into a state of happy-shooters-fatigue.

As always ... The High Road is a pleasure to travel! Thanks everyone!
 
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For those who refuse to believe the Springfield Rifle bolt will close on a single round dropped into the chamber please read " Model 1903 Springfield Rifles " which is an American Rifleman reprint. It used to be available from the NRA bookstore for a small fee. I believe I paid about $3.95 for my copy many moons ago. They also had other books on particular rifles such as the Garand and Carbine. Lots of good reading available from the NRA ( if they still sell them).
 
shooter1niner said:
For those who refuse to believe the Springfield Rifle bolt will close on a single round dropped into the chamber please read " Model 1903 Springfield Rifles " which is an American Rifleman reprint
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A man build 4 magnificent rifles, he made the 7mm Wildcat reamer, he purchased 4 03 rifles from Sears. three of them had never been issued. The first rifle he completed had 5 case head separations out of the first 10 cases fired. He had never experienced anything like that before so he called me; I told him he could have determine if that could happen before he left his shop, I told him I could have fixed the problem before he left the shop, I told him I could have met him at the range and fixed the problem long enough for him to fire form his cases.

F. Guffey
 
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