1911 and the external extractor

[sprice]

I was inspired to make this thread because of another; but are external extractor 1911's as good as the original? Why did they make external extractors? What are the pro's and con's? Are S&W/Sig Sauer 1911's as reliable as other 1911's?

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

It depends on the design of the external extractor. The one Kimber used that also tried to double as a loaded chamber indicator was disastrous, but S&W's is basically the same as the one they've been using since the 1950s with very few problems. A SIG I had broke the hook off its external extractor in less than 300 rounds, but I blame this more on part quality than design. The original design extractor can cause all kinds of problems if not perfectly tensioned (i.e., bent). Unfortunately, many new guns are not delivered with this tension set correctly. An external requires no such "tuning," but is not easily replaced without tools and expertise, either.

 

[gglass]

It depends on the design of the external extractor. The one Kimber used that also tried to double as a loaded chamber indicator was disastrous, but S&W's is basically the same as the one they've been using since the 1950s with very few problems. A SIG I had broke the hook off its external extractor in less than 300 rounds, but I blame this more on part quality than design. The original design extractor can cause all kinds of problems if not perfectly tensioned (i.e., bent). Unfortunately, many new guns are not delivered with this tension set correctly. An external requires no such "tuning," but is not easily replaced without tools and expertise, either.

Ditto

 

[jmorris]

I have seen more external fail than internal.

 

[Zak Smith]

[. An external requires no such "tuning," but is not easily replaced without tools and expertise, either.

While that is true, if there is insufficient clearance on the top and bottom (ie in the frame cutout) eventualy gunk can cause problems. My DW 1911 has this problem and eventually cracked an extractor because it couldn't move. The replacement, I made sure to fit it with sufficient clearance and it's fine over 10k round later.

 

[JTQ]

The standard internal extractor on 1911's are a rather common problem area. Many experienced 1911 users have become experts at tuning their extractors because of how common the problem is. If you spend time on 1911 forums, or S&W forums, you can read of the occasional S&W 1911 problem, but extractor problems are not usually one of them.

Kimber started off making their 1911's with internal extractors just like everybody else, but at some point no doubt observed the reliability reputation Glock was developing. Jumping on a perceived "bandwagon" Kimber developed an external extractor that looked amazingly like the Glock extractor. The only problem was it didn't really work that well. Kimber took some hits and offered to replace the entire slide on pistols with external extractors. Hence the bad reputation for 1911's with external extractors.

S&W has not had the same problem.

 

[OregonJohnny]

In the 5 years I've owned my one and only 1911, a standard S&W 1911 Stainless 5", I haven't had a single feed or extraction problem. The only problem I ever had was in the first 200 rounds, the slide sometimes would not stay back after the last round. I started using Wilson magazines instead of the S&W supplied magazines, and the problem never returned.

I have absolute faith in the function of my S&W 1911. Purists may not like the look of an external extractor on a 1911, but I don't mind it.

 

[Balrog]

There are two problems, as I understand it, with internal extractors. First is that the extractor is supposed to be made out of spring steel, because it is effectively a leaf spring. MIM steel does not have the same flex as spring steel.

Second, it requires a certain amount of tweaking or tuning to bend the extractor just right to get it to work properly. Hand tuning doesnt happen with production guns.

So you take a part not made to original spec, and dont install it correctly, and you are more likely to have a problem.

If the above is not how others feel, I am sure I will be shot down quite quickly...

 

[sprice]

Great info guys. Does anybody else actually have a sig 1911 or S&W 1911 with comments?

 

[Drail]

A BIG +1 for Balrog. Internal extractors are either a quality made spring, or they're not. But a proper one will function 100% for a very long time and extract cases with monotonous regularity.

 

[1911Tuner]

The standard internal extractor on 1911's are a rather common problem area. Many experienced 1911 users have become experts at tuning their extractors because of how common the problem is.

I must respectfully beg to differ. If the gun is functioning properly, about the only thing you'll have to do to a proper internal extractor is remove it for cleaning periodically.

The single thing that causes extractor woes is a magazine that loses control of the cartridge and leads to a push feed into the chamber, with the claw climbing the rim instead of picking it up from underneath. That will beat the tension out of one in a hurry.

I've got a few hard-use range beaters that haven't needed extractor "tuning" in tens of thousands of rounds...and several years of use. I've even got one that I installed a cannabalized extractor from a 1918 GI Colt into...and once tension was set...has never caused me a problem. Seems like that was in 1997...and the gun has been through about 70,000 rounds since then.

 

[Balrog]

I've even got one that I installed a cannabalized extractor from a 1918 GI Colt into

I bet that 1918 extractor is made out of the correct steel too

 

[ScratchnDent]

Does anybody else actually have a sig 1911 or S&W 1911 with comments?

I have had a S&W 1911 for about 4 years now, with somewhere around 8-9,000 rounds through it. (I quit counting at 5,000, a couple years ago)

No problems at all with it.

 

[1911Tuner]

Bottom line:

A well-engineered external extractor is good to go. Externals have been used successfully for years, so they're not inherently bad...no matter what platform they're in.
The main advantage of the internal is that it's easier to remove for cleaning in the field, and the only real disadvantage of the external is that the spring will probably need to replaced periodically.

Aside from that, they both do the same job, and...assuming good design and materials... there is no clear advantage of one over the other.