1911 experts: Help! Identification of a beautiful old girl

[iamkris]

I have quite a few 1911's -- a Colt, Les Baer, Dan Wesson, Para, Kimber -- but they are all relatively modern production. However, I need some help ID-ing an early 1911.

Below are some pix I took to help a buddy out. This pistol was purchased used about 50 years ago by the buddy's uncle, they willed to the buddy's father 10 years ago when the uncle died. Now the buddy is getting this pistol from his father.

When he asked me to look at it, the fuzzy picture revealed a S/N of 472xxx. That puts it as a military 1911 model built in 1918. What I saw really confused me...see the pictures below.

• The pistol is a fairly high polish, commercial style finish. It is a quite old finish, with old wear marks near the muzzle from carrying.
• Inside the pistol, at the 6 o'clock position is a "G" stamp, indicating that it is a government model ("S" indicates commerical).
• The S/N has no C prefix that you would see on a commercial model.
• The frame has no "US Property" stamp on it on either side.
• The slide does not have a "MODEL OF 1911 US ARMY" on its right side...it is blank
• The left side of the slide has the rampant pony inbetween the two sets of patent dates
• Vertical slide serrations
• There is no indication of refinishing...all the rollmarks are deep and crisp...there are no grind marks indicating getting rid of markings. Edges are not turned indicating lots of stripping and polishing

What is this pistol?

1) Is it an early government frame that has been very nicely refinished and mated with a later commercial slide?
2) It is an excellent bubba job of professional refinishing?
3) Is it an early commercial pistol that was diverted to military duty and not marked?
4) Is it a variant that I can't find in my (relatively short) research?

My guess was #1 above, but is there some obvious thing am I missing? Thanks in advance

 

[OcelotZ3]

Someone might have shaved the original markings off the frame. I have a Remington Rand with no US Property marks but it is pretty clear in photographs that the metal was shaved at some point.

 

[surbat6]

I have a similar 1911 Colt (sn indicates 1918 manufacture) with the "United States Property" marking nearly polished away. In fact, I thought mine might be a hybrid or a lunchbox gun until I examined it under a good magnifying glass and saw slight traces of the mark.
It's possible that the missing slide marking was another polish job, but if you find no trace of marks in either location, you may have a gun an early 20th century Colt employee smuggled home in his lunchbox.

 

[MICHAEL T]

I pick #1 and would say thanks and enjoy it.

 

[Oro]

5) None of the above

(or maybe #2 if you meant "excellent refinish").

It's a correct military gun that has had all it's military markings carefully removed. Originally, this gun was one of the 1918 "Black Army" Colts. The left side slide marking are consistent with a military model of that s/n. The slide markings on the right were likely removed along with the frame markings. This was terribly common on bring-back guns. This one was just well done - no mystery. Usually it was done less skillfully, and often the s/n was also removed and left blank or an obvious fake one re-stamped. In a sense he's lucky they left the original one in place. It's not a 'collectible' specimen, but all-in-all it appears to be an intact WWI era gun and that's interesting.

The blue job is non-factory, so it's clear the gun has been polished by someone else at least once. There is enough rounding to the metal transition areas that it's clear it was polished post-factory. It's entirely possible to do it carefully and not wear through or dish the rollmarks. All other parts on the gun look stock to a WWI vintage military gun, especially the MSH. That point is a strong indication that is a stock WWI military gun, just with the military marking carefully removed.

An interesting thing is that looks like a pre-WWII blue job by the aging on it. Which brings up the question if those are actual pre-war Colt grips. I can not tell from those photos, but if so they alone are both uncommon and valuable. OTOH, they may be WWII era bakelite grips; I just can't tell from the dim photos. Another point is to examine the magazine and see if the top portion (usually from the feed lips down to the 3rd or 4th witness holes) is bare and not blued. This was characteristic of the WWI-era "two-tone" magazines. It was the result of an arsenic-based acid bath to chemically harden the feed lip area. These are also valuable in original condition. They have no markings on the bottom of the base like modern magazines.

Here's a pic of what the gun looked like when it left the factory. Sorry these pics are not super-crisp; I should have used the tripod. This is not an original 1918 Colt "Black Army," but it is a 2009 Colt reproduction of that model (the O1918 model). I have seen more than one original in 99+% condition, and the original and the reproduction are hard to tell apart until you stare at them for a while. The placement of the trademark horse motif on the rear of the slide on this reproduction one is consistent with the earliest "Black Army" models; shortly later it was moved to the center like the example in your post. Most original "Black Army" models would in fact have the horse in the middle like your example.

 

[iamkris]

Oro - thanks. That's what I was looking for...a bit of authority on the subject.

I'm sure my buddy will be dissappointed that it isn't a WWI era pistol in original condition. Frankly, I guess I've seen too many really bad refinish jobs and this is probably what threw me. it isn't at all obvious that rollmarks have been removed...no dishing or really bad gouging.

How would you begin to figure the value so he has guidance on what to do with it...based on what you said, I'm assuming it isn't in the $1000+ range? He has no sentimental value in the gun.

1) Complete beater...might be worth $200-300...use the major parts to build up something else
2) Not a beater but still a neat old gun...maybe $400-500 worth. Shoot the crap out of it like any AutoOrd or Rock Island "basic GI" style pistol or sell it.
3) Non-original or not, it is still a skillfully made refinish and the vintage of the gun would make it bring $600-800. Could sell it to fund a portion of an original military 1911...could have Doug Turnbull restamp the gun as long as it wasn't passed off as original

I looked at the gun yesterday and can answer a couple of the other questions. The magazines are not 2-tone and are serialized on the bottom. Would that make those roughly WWII/post-WWII mags? The grips are in very good condition but seem to be plastic/bakelite...so nothing special there.

 

[1911Tuner]

Nice old pistol, but the grips aren't original. Shoot it a little if you want...but don't make a beater out of it. Those old guns were dead soft and won't stand up to hard use for thousands of rounds a year. The lugs in the slide and on the barrel will deform and start to set back within 7-8,000 rounds, and the slide tend to crack around the breechface due to recoil forces. Ditto for peening on the breechface. Shoot it a little and enjoy it, but be gentle with the old girl. Pistols built after 1946 are fully hardened and much more robust.

 

[Oro]

Like 1911Tuner said, pre-war guns are softer and not really suitable as "blasters" - tons of rounds or heavy use.

Various magazines had serial numbers on the bottom - some contract Government magazines, for example. The most common ones you encounter though are Argentine Balester-Molina (usually WWII era - has a stamped F circled on the toe) and FMAP/Colt (aka "Sistmea") magazines. The latter have a five or six digit number stamped on the base and no other markings. They are generally faithful copies of pre-war Colt magazines with pinned bases and reliable, though the feed lips aren't hardened adequately and sometimes crack. Otherwise your value comments sounds about right.

 

[iamkris]

Thanks for the replies. I know it is a difficult question sight-unseen, but do you think this is a $400-$500 gun or a $700-$800 gun?

 

[navyretired 1]

It's a nice old 1911 but saying it's not been buffed is in error, every line on the gun has been rounded over and the slide edges wander. It is a 1911 though without a doubt and as such is still a worthwhile gun to keep and take care of, maybe even restored with proper rollmarks and sharpened edges if he can afford. As long as your not trying to rip off someone with a restoration and it's only for his pleasure it's a good weapon for restoration.