1911 feeding issues with topped-off mag

[mpthole]

I was doing some shooting the other day with my two 1911s and had the same problem with both of them, using the same magazines... so I'm thinking its either the magazines or my reloads. This happened maybe 75% of the time.

Ammo: 230 gr JHP on 5.1 gr of W-231. OAL = ~1.175
Mags: Metalform 7-round or O.E.M. mags from Midway

Load a mag to 7 rounds. Insert into gun. Chamber a round. Click on safety. Eject magazine to top-off. Re-insert magazine. Aim at target, click off safety and fire one round. Jam. Slide is almost locked back and it looks like the next round is shoved forward a bit, but (obviously) isn't chambering.

At this point, I tried a couple things. One was to just lock the slide back, eject the mag, push the top round to the back of the magazine, re-insert, chamber and go again. All functioned fine. Second was to curse, shake the gun while pulling back on the slide and releasing it trying to get the stuborn round to chamber... sometimes this worked and sometimes it didn't.

This only happened when topping off a magazine... but not consistently on all the mags I tried. Even the same mag would work once when topped off and then wouldn't the next time I loaded it up.

Could it be the JHP round I'm using? Maybe I should just be sticking with plain ol' 230 gr ball...?

 

[bountyhunter]

Sounds lik a nosedive where the round's nose isn't getting up high enough to get onto the ramp. I have the same problem with all of the 9mm mags for my 1911. Loaded full, you have to keep the slide back and drop it to chamber the first round. Push the mag in against a closed slide and it compresses the round stack enough to cause the first feeding round to nosedive. Stronger mag spring might help, also bending the top coil a shade to try to get more pressure on the front edge of the stack helps.

 

[only1asterisk]

Does it happen with factoy ammo? What 1911's exactly? You can hand chamber a round, but it will not feed from the magazine?

My problem was worse! mine wouldn't feed from any magazine under any circumstances unless the magazines were loaded with 5 or fewer rounds.

Good luck and try some other ammo.

David

 

[mpthole]

Haven't tried it with any factory ammo yet. I plan to this Friday when I can get to the range next. The guns are a (1988) Sprinfield Armory 1911 and a new, 2004, Rock Island Armory... both full-size gov't models.

Both will feed from the magazine perfectly fine, but only will do it 100% of the time when I don't 'top-off' the magazine. When I top-off the magazine (after chambering the first round), they will jam about 75% of the time on the 1st round in the magazine.

 

[1911Tuner]

Top-Round Nosedives

Howdy mah fren,

Top round nosedives are almost always a magazine issue, but in your case,
I'm gonna say that it's your 1.175 cartridge OAL. The factory ball ammo
runs between 1.250 and 1.265, and truncated cone hollowpoints generally
run to at least 1.220 inches long.

If the bullet nose is catching on the bottom of the barrel throat, check for the 32nd-inch gap that it needs. If the bottom of the throat is flush with the top of the ramp, this would be part of your problem. If it overhangs,
it's a wonder that the gun will feed anything.

Standin' by...

Tuner

 

[yotehunter]

I had a problem just like the one your having but mine happened with every mag I had. I changed recoil springs and the problem went away. If your recoil spring gets weak it may not have enough force to strip a round off the mag. Springfields are going through this problem now, I think they got a batch of out of spec springs, if you go to the 1911 forum and read the springfield section you will see that a number of people are having that same problem. I have 2 new sprinfields that I had to change the springs on.

 

[mpthole]

Tunner, ol buddy,

The OAL is so short because they were hanging up when they were a bit longer... even out to 1.195, I'd sometimes have to use a dowel to push out a chambered round. That was no good, especially when shooting IDPA and you have to unload and show clear at the end of a stage. After a couple times of that I'd just fire off the last round rather than screwing with a dowel.

These are Zero brand bullets (230 gr JHP) that came highly recommended, but I've sure had my share of problems with them.

I checked for that gap between the the top of the ramp and the throat... the Rock Island has a noticeable gap... can't figure out how to measure it exactly, but its there... no overhang at all. The Springfield is almost flush. Hard to tell if its a little short or a little long... when I run my finger over it I can feel the difference, but I can't tell which way it is! And actually, this particular gun has eaten almost anything I've fed it so far so it doesn't seem like it would be that...?

The easiest answer is probably the magazine.


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You know, I just figured out what you meant by maybe those rounds being too short. I wonder if they'd funtion better if I found a happy medium around 1.190? Although that's still too short according to your numbers....

But really, it doesn't matter since they've all been loaded up and its time to buy/try something new. These rounds work just fine in my USP, so I'll just have to use them in that I guess.

Back to the drawing board....

I'm going for a walk. :banghead:

 

[Texasbagman]

First impressions. The load you are shooting is a starting load at about 700 FPS per my manuals. Bump in up and you may gain some slide velocity that will carry the slide back fully and let the mag bring the top round up and get a full run at it.

Also, your OAL is short. I would bump the load to 5.4 gr. and set your OAL at about 1.225.

IMO.

 

[1911WB]

Jamming problem

A couple of thoughts: what weight recoil spring are u using? Have u tried a 14# spring? Also, are u using a Lee Factory Crimp die as a 4th stage? It solves a lot of "out of speck" round problems.

 

[mpthole]

Back from my walk. Ohhh, I feel better now. Here are some answers to the top two posters above.

The load you are shooting is a starting load at about 700 FPS per my manuals

When I started with this load, I was using 4.9 gr of W231. That was only giving me a mean velocity of 727. After I bumped up the charge to 5.1 I'm now getting a mean velocity of 849. I don't know if I'm getting more velocity because the round has to be seated so deeply, therefore causing more pressure... ?

Also, your OAL is short. I would bump the load to 5.4 gr. and set your OAL at about 1.225.

If I use an OAL that long, the round will be touching the rifling and get 'hung-up' when I try to eject a live round.

A couple of thoughts: what weight recoil spring are u using? Have u tried a 14# spring?

The Sprinfield Armory has a new Wolff #14 or #16 I think. I went on 1911Tuner's suggestion, so whatever his standard is, that's what I got. The RIA has whatever is stock... feels lighter than my Sprinfield, but that's a pretty subjective estimate.

Also, are u using a Lee Factory Crimp die as a 4th stage? It solves a lot of "out of speck" round problems.

I'm using all Dillon dies. The rounds all slide in-and-out very nicely on my case gauge and they all function (except for this particular feeding problem) well in both 1911's and my USP .45C. Its even a fairly accurate round.

 

[Third_Rail]

It almost sounds like the chamber on the pistol is slightly out of specifications.

 

[1911Tuner]

Hanging up

Hey mah fren,

If your bullet ogives are getting caught in the rifling with a 1.175 OAL, you've got an out-of-spec chamber. Either the chamber is short or the
leade is.(The tapered portion of the rifling just before the full-depth
rifling starts. Pretty quick and easy fix for a smith with a set of chamber
reamers and a lathe.

Check for the short chamber with an empty, sized casing that measures
.895-.898 inch long. Ideally, it should sit flush, or very nearly so...with
the back of the barrel hood. If it stands up above flush, your chamber is out of spec. This won't be an absolute headspace test, but it will give you an idea of where you're at in the project.

The recoil spring rating shouldn't affect the way the round strips from the magazine if all else is well with the gun. One of my yardsticks for feed
reliability is that the gun feed and go to battery with a 10-pound spring,
regardless of whether the slide is released from lock via the release, the slingshot release, or live fire...at any point in the magazine. Installing a
stronger recoil spring to get the gun to go to battery reliably is a band-aid
that masks the real problem.

There's a possibility that the feed ramp in the frame is cut at a steeper angle than print specs. That would be a matter for the warranty or a
pistolsmith who knows how to cut the ramp.

Standin' by...

Tuner

 

[mpthole]

If your bullet ogives are getting caught in the rifling with a 1.175 OAL, you've got an out-of-spec chamber.

Nope - at 1.175, they don't get caught in the rifling. Its when I get around 1.195+ that they get caught up.

Check for the short chamber with an empty, sized casing that measures .895-.898 inch long. Ideally, it should sit flush, or very nearly so...with the back of the barrel hood.

I tried this with both barrels. The empty case sits flush in the SA barrel and in the RIA it sits just a hair below the back of the barrel hood. This was with a case that measures .895. I had to go through several empties to find one that long. Most were .890.

At this point I'm really hoping some 230 gr ball ammo will cure all my troubles. Won't be able to find out until Friday though.

 

[Texasbagman]

Very odd problem.

My favorite carry load is the Rem. GS 230 gr. BJHP. OAL is 1.240" on the ones I measured. They fall right out of the chamber.

Obviously, your short OAL could be causing the higher pressure/velocities. But... I'm wondering if you don't have another problem.

MAYBE,

Take a look in your chamber. Where does the rifleing begin? Is there a gap, .100" or so, from the end of the chamber and the beginning of the rifleing?

 

[Texasbagman]

Please forgive my lack of reading comprehension, but this is happening with both the RIA and SA? Both pistols have the bullet jam in the chamber if the OAL is over 1.195"?

 

[mpthole]

Both pistols have the bullet jam in the chamber if the OAL is over 1.195"?

Nope, only the Springfield for sure. I bought the RIA very recently. The bullet in question is a Zero brand, 230 gr JHP.

 

[yotehunter]

The reason I mentioned the recoil spring was from the way it sounds he has not had a problem before with these 1911's. It could very well be the mags but if the recoil springs are weak they will give the same problem. I realise that a 10# spring should cycle a round but if the feed ramp isnt smoothed and polished a weak or low rated spring will not feed reliably. The spring I took out of my new springfield will not work reliably in a couple of my 1911's, and its supposed to be 16#, I put in a Wolf 16# and it works fine.
My point is that in a otherwise good pistol you are not covering up a problem by changing springs if the springs your replacing are bad.

 

[1911Tuner]

OAL

Even at 1.195 OAL, the ogive getting caught in the rifling shouldn't happen.
-------------------------------------

Yotehunter, I meant that the gun shouldn't require using an 18 or 20 pound
spring to go to battery reliably, but a polished throat and ramp alone aren't
going to be the determining factors. IF the gun gives problems with a 16
pound spring that's seen 2,000-2500 rounds, and returns to reliable
function with a new 16 pound spring....how ya gonna trust a snake like that?

The mag springs could very well be the problem here, as top round nose dives usually are a magazine issue, though not always a magazine spring issue.
-----------------------------------------

Make up a dummy round with a 1.220-inch OAL and see if that makes a difference.

 

[mpthole]

All - thank you again for your help and patience. I'm not doing anything with firearms tonight because I decided to have a few cocktails after work with my lovely fiancee. So I'll try Tuner's idea tomorrow night. If all else fails, I plan on going to the range on Friday night and just shooting some ball ammo. If that doesn't work, I may very well trade the SOB in this weekend at the gun show for a SA mil-spec (GI or not, I dont' know - depends on the price they'll give me).

Cheers!

 

[mpthole]

Make up a dummy round with a 1.220-inch OAL and see if that makes a difference.

Tuner: I made up a couple dummy rounds like you suggested. They did seem to feed better for the few tests I did, but now they get hung up in the rifling of the barrel. Tomorrow night is my chance to test these guns and mags with ball ammo. I think my solution is going to be to not use this type of bullet anymore.

I'm thinking about trying these: http://www.precisionbullets.com/. I've heard some good things about them.

 

[1911Tuner]

Feed Better

mpthole said

...but now they get hung up in the rifling. I think my solution is going to be to not use this type of bullet anymore.

Okay...Problem one solved...probably...but I think the solution is gonna be
lettin' a smith finish-ream the chamber. Sounds like the leade portion is
either too short, or not there.

Luck to ya, mah fren!

Tuner

 

[BluesBear]

Let me make sure I am understanding this correctly.

You have TWO .45 caliber pistols that are having ammo with an OAL of 1.220" hanging up in the RIFLING? Or was it that both were jamming with the shorter than normal rounds?

When you eject the 1.220" rounds you are seeing rifling marks on the bullets?

Is there any way you can post a picture of this?

 

[SodaPop]

I had the same problem with 2 of my Wilson's Combat 8rd mags.

I should have changed the mag springs after 8000rds, though.:banghead:

 

[mpthole]

You have TWO .45 caliber pistols that are having ammo with an OAL of 1.220" hanging up in the RIFLING? Or was it that both were jamming with the shorter than normal rounds?

Actually, its even worse than that. First off, the short rounds only jammed when I would top-off the magazine. This happened in both 1911's with various mags. Second, the longer rounds (1.220") would hang-up in not only both of my 1911's, but my USP .45 as well!

This tells me that it has more to do with a crappy bullet design, because one should be able to load a .45 out to 1.220" without having problems like this.

When you eject the 1.220" rounds you are seeing rifling marks on the bullets?

Yes.

Is there any way you can post a picture of this?

See below for an older picture ... Otherwise, maybe next week as I'm borrowing a buddy's digital camera this weekend to take some pictures of some things I want to sell.

In the meantime, if you're so inclined you can read up on the history of this problem over hear on this Glocktalk thread. Tuner was helping me out over there too and may remember this saga.

Here's an older picture I took of the first "longer" rounds and the rifling marks (from the Glocktalk thread above):

The round on the far right is a "fresh" reload. The other two were loaded into the pistol and ejected by racking the slide. Notice the land marks on the bullet - the white marks? Also the round in the middle - check out the rim of the case. Definitely more beat up than the others.

--------------
In the meantime... my solution is going to be to buy different bullets of a better design and not fire these in my 1911s.

 

[1911Tuner]

Bullets

I don't think I've seen any of those bullets...What kind are they?
have you miked'em to see what the sizing looks like? That could well be
the problem if they're over .452 inch, or if the full diameter is too far
forward.

Standin' by...

Tuner