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BTW thanks to whoever recommended the Wilson flat spring assembly. Dis and reassembly is much easier and slide action seems smoother and consistent. I am hopeful that we're getting close.
1911 gurus: Kimber Super Carry Pro FTF first round
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Fired 8 mags of UMC ball, no FTF, 2 BTF but they may have come down rather than straight back. Filed the ejector angle a bit more, 4 more mags, no FTF, no BTF.
got a blister on the web of my hand, but no other problems.
I'll have the owner shoot it and report back. Thanks for all the help!
got a blister on the web of my hand, but no other problems.
I'll have the owner shoot it and report back. Thanks for all the help!
Steve in Allentown
Member
1KPerDay, just to round out this subject of extractor deflection I thought I'd post this.
Below is what a perfectly fit extractor looks like at the business end. Note that the hook does not touch the case anywhere.
Below are three images showing what happens to the extractor as a cartidge slides up the breechface during the feeding cycle. The perspective is from the muzzle. The dashed vertical line inside the extractor represents the tensioning wall.
The first image shows the case rim before it engages the extractor. More precisely, the rim has not contacted the tensioning wall yet. Here the extractor's locating pad is in contact with the inside left of the slide tunnel (not shown).
The second image shows that when the rim contacts the tensioning wall the extractor is pushed away from the pistol's centerline.
The last image shows the case rim fully engaged with the tensioning wall. It is at this point that extractor deflection is at its maximum.
Deflection, also referred to as cam out, is very important. A minimal amount of deflection will allow good functioning with more tension than what is generally considered prudent. But an extractor with lots of deflection can cause malfunctions even if the extractor has very little tension.
So that's the theory. How do you set extractor deflection without taking all those measurements and doing the math like I posted previously? Simple. Make a guage and slide it between the left tensioning wall and the installed extractor. The tensioning wall should touch the guage. If it doesn't, remove metal from the locating pad until it does. That's it.
I make my guages from a piece of flat stock steel from MSC Direct https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06104053. Here's a picture of one:
More theory. How much deflection is needed? I think Jerry Keefer said he runs somewhere around 0.006" of deflection. I try to hit 0.010". The confounding factor is case rim diameter. SAMMI spec is .480" but I don't think I've ever seen rims that wide in real life. A sampling of the brass I have on hand shows most diameters right around 0.475" or a tad bigger. Because of this I prefer my .466" guage. You can see in the table below that my .466" guage gives .010" deflection with .476" rims, a tiny bit less for .475" rims, and a tiny bit more for .477" rims.
So, if you discover that most of your rims are .480", you can use a .470" guage to achieve perfect 0.010" deflection and that should work with rims a little bit bigger and a little bit smaller. Note that if your guage is .470" and your rims are .470", the extractor will have zero deflection.
All of this talk about specifc deflection amounts is open for debate. I imagine the real 1911 'smiths here have their own preferred measurements based on their experience. All of the preceeding is based on my own experience and experimentation. Experimentation means George at EGW will be able to retire early thanks to all the extractors I've bought from him as I screwed up one after another in my quest for extractor perfection.
Here's a simple animation of the case rim sliding up the breechface and pushing the extractor to the side.
Below is what a perfectly fit extractor looks like at the business end. Note that the hook does not touch the case anywhere.
Below are three images showing what happens to the extractor as a cartidge slides up the breechface during the feeding cycle. The perspective is from the muzzle. The dashed vertical line inside the extractor represents the tensioning wall.
The first image shows the case rim before it engages the extractor. More precisely, the rim has not contacted the tensioning wall yet. Here the extractor's locating pad is in contact with the inside left of the slide tunnel (not shown).
The second image shows that when the rim contacts the tensioning wall the extractor is pushed away from the pistol's centerline.
The last image shows the case rim fully engaged with the tensioning wall. It is at this point that extractor deflection is at its maximum.
Deflection, also referred to as cam out, is very important. A minimal amount of deflection will allow good functioning with more tension than what is generally considered prudent. But an extractor with lots of deflection can cause malfunctions even if the extractor has very little tension.
So that's the theory. How do you set extractor deflection without taking all those measurements and doing the math like I posted previously? Simple. Make a guage and slide it between the left tensioning wall and the installed extractor. The tensioning wall should touch the guage. If it doesn't, remove metal from the locating pad until it does. That's it.
I make my guages from a piece of flat stock steel from MSC Direct https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/06104053. Here's a picture of one:
More theory. How much deflection is needed? I think Jerry Keefer said he runs somewhere around 0.006" of deflection. I try to hit 0.010". The confounding factor is case rim diameter. SAMMI spec is .480" but I don't think I've ever seen rims that wide in real life. A sampling of the brass I have on hand shows most diameters right around 0.475" or a tad bigger. Because of this I prefer my .466" guage. You can see in the table below that my .466" guage gives .010" deflection with .476" rims, a tiny bit less for .475" rims, and a tiny bit more for .477" rims.
So, if you discover that most of your rims are .480", you can use a .470" guage to achieve perfect 0.010" deflection and that should work with rims a little bit bigger and a little bit smaller. Note that if your guage is .470" and your rims are .470", the extractor will have zero deflection.
All of this talk about specifc deflection amounts is open for debate. I imagine the real 1911 'smiths here have their own preferred measurements based on their experience. All of the preceeding is based on my own experience and experimentation. Experimentation means George at EGW will be able to retire early thanks to all the extractors I've bought from him as I screwed up one after another in my quest for extractor perfection.
Here's a simple animation of the case rim sliding up the breechface and pushing the extractor to the side.
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Thanks. I still don't quite understand how deflection and tension can be separated but I'll keep thinking about it. And the pistol still doesn't throw brass into a neat little pile but as long as it feeds and ejects and doesn't BTF I'm calling it good.
horsemen61
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Well I guess your almost done with this then huh?
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Assuming the owner doesn't experience any failures to feed, eject, or brass to the face, I'm calling it good.
RecoilRob
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I like to have the guns ejecting a loaded round as soon as it'll clear the port, and this normally ends up throwing empties well away from the face. Almost certain the ejector is just too short and late contacting the case. How much slop the ejector has longitudinally adds to the delay on ejection. If the case is held tightly to the breech face, which isn't ideal, the ejector comes into play sooner and I think some ejector problems have been 'solved' by fitting a tighter extractor...but the real gremlin lies in a short ejector.
If you get the gun back and it needs more attention...go to the ejector! Start with it long enough to stick the nose of a loaded round on the way out...if it's that long. Haven't replaced one in 30 years so what is available now might not be long enough for this to happen. If it throws loaded rounds out of the port with a brisk ejection, try shooting it and I'll wager the empties come nowhere near your face. Mine go up and over my right shoulder about 4 o'clock and you'd have to shoot them left handed from the hip to have any chance of getting struck by the empties. Good luck!
If you get the gun back and it needs more attention...go to the ejector! Start with it long enough to stick the nose of a loaded round on the way out...if it's that long. Haven't replaced one in 30 years so what is available now might not be long enough for this to happen. If it throws loaded rounds out of the port with a brisk ejection, try shooting it and I'll wager the empties come nowhere near your face. Mine go up and over my right shoulder about 4 o'clock and you'd have to shoot them left handed from the hip to have any chance of getting struck by the empties. Good luck!
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Thanks. I shot it again and there is no joy in Mudville. I got a FTF first round from slide stop, and 2 BTF in 8 mags. Just for fun I reinstalled the EGW extractor and got 3 BTF in one mag. Tried my .466" gauge on it, wasn't close to touching. Tried bending it in a little but that just made it too tight in the channel, and the .466" gauge still didn't touch. Empty brass doesn't have any tension on the extractor. Obviously I need to fit the locating pad on that one. While I'm at it I'll order an oversized firing pin stop as it feels pretty loose, though I can't see or feel any obvious clocking.
I will try that next, then if I can't get reliable feeding without BTF, I'll replace the ejector with a longer one and try tuning it.
I re-checked the Kimber with the .466" gauge and it's just touching. Still feels ka-chunky on feeding and as noted above, one FTF first round. If I adjust it out it feeds smoother but then I get BTF.
Any tips on fitting the EGW locating pad? Do I use a flat file or some sort of concave file or sandpaper?
I will try that next, then if I can't get reliable feeding without BTF, I'll replace the ejector with a longer one and try tuning it.
I re-checked the Kimber with the .466" gauge and it's just touching. Still feels ka-chunky on feeding and as noted above, one FTF first round. If I adjust it out it feeds smoother but then I get BTF.
Any tips on fitting the EGW locating pad? Do I use a flat file or some sort of concave file or sandpaper?
Steve in Allentown
Member
I find it very difficult to maintain the perfectly symetrical half-round shape of the fitting pad as I file. What I have started doing is filing a flat at the top and bottom of the fitting pad. This leaves a relatively small "nose" consisting of the original, untouched portion of the fitting pad. It is this nose that will contact the inside of the slide tunnel and provide the deflection distance.
Now that I only have to worry about removing material from the "nose" it's much easier to maintain the round shape. As I get close to the deflection I want, I'll switch over to 320 grit sandpaper cut into long strips. I put the extractor in a vise and shoe-shine the "nose" with the long strips of sandpaper until I achieve the desired deflection.
CAUTION Make sure you test fit the extractor many, many times as you proceed. Sneak up on the deflection. Don't try to do it all at once. Inevitably, whenever I don't take my time, I remove too much metal.
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Steve in Allentown
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In case my description of how I modify the extractor locating pad was not clear, here are some pictures that may help.
Nothing here is to scale.
The first picture is looking at the extractor cross sectional profile head on from the muzzle end. The right side of the image is nearest the centerline of the pistol.
The dashed line is where I'll file.
The result of the filing is a "nose" that has been untouched by the filing. It is this nose that I will then file and sand to achieve the appropriate extractor deflection. As material is removed from the nose, the nose becomes wider thus slowing down additional material removal. This is a good thing and helps me to sneak up on the deflection without screwing up and taking too much off.
And finally, another Cecil B. DeMille movie to put it all together.
Nothing here is to scale.
The first picture is looking at the extractor cross sectional profile head on from the muzzle end. The right side of the image is nearest the centerline of the pistol.
The dashed line is where I'll file.
The result of the filing is a "nose" that has been untouched by the filing. It is this nose that I will then file and sand to achieve the appropriate extractor deflection. As material is removed from the nose, the nose becomes wider thus slowing down additional material removal. This is a good thing and helps me to sneak up on the deflection without screwing up and taking too much off.
And finally, another Cecil B. DeMille movie to put it all together.
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Thanks again Steve. The owner fired about 10 mags and found a curious association of one of the Kimber welded plate mags and the first round FTF. It is noticeably harder to load (slip the round past the lips) than any other, and it's the one that produces FTF from slide stop. None of the other mags had FTFs.
The ejector may still need some work, and I'm thinking now about trying a longer one, because he had a couple BTF.
But compared to the way it was running before, it's 100% better. All rounds feed, fire and eject using known good mags.
Hopefully I can resolve the BTF issue. And I still may try to fit the EGW to see if it helps.
The ejector may still need some work, and I'm thinking now about trying a longer one, because he had a couple BTF.
But compared to the way it was running before, it's 100% better. All rounds feed, fire and eject using known good mags.
Hopefully I can resolve the BTF issue. And I still may try to fit the EGW to see if it helps.
Steve in Allentown
Member
My experience with shorter than 5" barrel 1911s is that a long ejector is a key component for reliable functioning. I have a CCO that was a little finiky. The fix was carving an ejector out of an EGW blank and fittinng it very precisely to the slide. In fact, I posted a couple of pictures of it earlier in this thread. http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=10187120&postcount=91
Below is a comparison of that ejector with the stock ejector that came with the pistol. You'll note how long the ejector is. It is so long that it will not properly eject a loaded round. I'll get that squared away in the coming weeks. However, it kicks out empty cases like a dream and it has no bevels of any kind on the nose. Everything flys cleanly out, up, and to my right rear. As I shorten the nose to eject live rounds, I will be very careful not to make it ANY shorter than necessary to do that.
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Cool!
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