1911 hammer lowering ideas?

[Vern Humphrey]

Which doesn't help if the owner decides, for whatever reason...valid or not...that he/she wants to carry the pistol in Condition Two, and telling them not to do it is a little like telling teenagers not to have sex and ending the discussion. We all know from experience that strategy doesn't work too well. We can advise them not to, but we also offer instruction on how to minimize the risks, and hope for the best.

My position is once I have told someone the right way to do or not do certain things, I have no further responsibility if they neglect my advice.

For example, if I tell kids not to use drugs, I don't have to tell them how to sterilize their needles should they decide to go ahead and do it any way.

 

[Skylerbone]

Got nothing to do with right or wrong, unless you truly believe your preference for which condition of readiness is somehow universally denoted as right.

 

[1911Tuner]

There really isn't a defined "right" or "wrong" way to carry a 1911 pistol. The way it's designed, it offers six choices, and only the man who carries one can determine which way is right for him. If he chooses to carry it unloaded with the magazine in his pocket...that's his choice.

It's really that simple.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

In 1991, I was personally involved with one that had been loaded and left in Condition One since the death of its owner...in 1929. It worked fine.

I think the story I'm thinking of is that one.

 

[gc70]

John Moses Browning had a few thoughts on lowering the hammer on a 1911.

From page 7 of U.S. Patent 984519 (a public domain document) issued to John Moses Browning on February 14, 1911:

Heretofore in the pistols of this class, when the hammer was cocked ready for firing, and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without allowing it to touch the firing-pin, it required both hands of the user to accomplish this act, because the trigger had to be pulled with the first finger of the right hand to release the hammer and the grip-lever had simultaneously to be pressed into the grip to release the trigger for operation, to do this required the keeping of the thumb of the right hand in a horizontal position on the left side of the grip. Therefore it was impracticable to also extend the thumb of the right hand while this hand pressed in the grip-lever and pulled the trigger, upward so as to rest upon the thumb-piece of the hammer and, thus controlling the hammer, to gently lower the same and restrain it from falling and from striking the firing-pin, because any attempt to do this would result in loosening the necessary hold upon the grip-lever. Consequently, the lowering of the hammer had to be performed by the other hand, this is a serious drawback in a military arm, as a soldier and especially a mounted soldier does not in action have both hands free for such use. To overcome this difficulty, I have provided the grip-lever w with a projecting nose w2 in rear of its pivot, which stands closely in rear of and below the hammer when cocked, and the hammer is so fitted that it may be drawn rearward somewhat farther than to its cocked position. When the hammer is drawn fully back it strikes the nose w2 and, by pressing the same downward, it causes the grip-lever to turn on its pivot forcing the lower portion into the grip, thereby releasing the trigger. By this arrangement the thumb of the hand grasping the grip needs not to be kept at the side of the grip for pressing the grip-lever, but the thumb may be applied to the hammer and through the same operate the grip-lever to release the trigger, then the trigger may be operated with the first finger of the same hand to release the hammer and finally the thumb, still applied to the hammer, may allow the same to slowly descend to the safety position, without requiring the aid of the other hand.

 

[1911Tuner]

Heretofore in the pistols of this class, when the hammer was cocked ready for firing, and it became necessary to lower the hammer to the safety position without allowing it to touch the firing-pin...

Note that the "Safety Position" described here is the half-cocked position...which sorta goes against the modern-day insistence that the half cock is not, and was never intended to be a safety.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Got nothing to do with right or wrong, unless you truly believe your preference for which condition of readiness is somehow universally denoted as right.

Yeah, it does. If people don't take good advice and as a result make bad decisions, I have no sympathy for them.

 

[Skylerbone]

If people don't take good advice and as a result make bad decisions, I have no sympathy for them.

Then as I understand things; if people choose to access a feature of the pistol they are making a bad decision. That about sum it up?

Then I say don't bother with the thumb safety. Everybody knows the 1911 won't fire without deactivating the grip safety and a trigger pull. Why anyone would risk their life fiddling with those "fine motor skills" required to sweep a redundant safety is beyond my comprehension.

Shall we agree that any other than Condition 0 is Tom Foolery as 0 is fastest, requires no unnecessary thought and as safe as any other?

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Then as I understand things; if people choose to access a feature of the pistol they are making a bad decision. That about sum it up?

If people blow their feet off, it's no skin off my nose.

 

[Skylerbone]

And how would they blow their feet off carrying C3?

 

[HDCamel]

I've borne witness to more than one ND when a guy thought he was dry-firing an empty pistol.

Regardless of how you want to bring the hammer down or if there's a live round under it when you do is pretty irrelevant as long as the gun is pointed in a safe direction. I would imagine most if not all NDs from de-cocking are from people who insist on fully lowering the hammer instead of just to the half-cock position as was originally intended.

 

[Skylerbone]

The three I've witnessed were from lack of trigger discipline. None of these concepts is with us at birth. I could say I've heard more homicidal maniacs used Glock 17s last year than all other pistols combined but that is no fault of the pistol. Like the question posed it's simply a conscious choice.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

OK, so in addition to the straight forward factual answers on this, we've got a variety of opinions on what to do and what not to do with respect to this topic...plus lots of extra opinions on how to carry or not to carry the 1911.

The bottom line is that the 1911 was DESIGNED with several specific features which ALLOW a variety of different conditions for the weapon to be carried and which ALLOW a variety of different actions to be taken based on those conditions and what the operator may wish to do.

All these design features offer CHOICES to people.

PICK the choices that each of you prefers, based on your personal preferences and an understanding of how the features work to support those choices.

LEARN how to safely and efficiently carry and operate the 1911 based on the choice you have made.

LEARN how to safely and efficiently carry and operate the 1911 based on the non-preferred choices on the philosphy that more knowledge is better and you never know when you'll need it or when someone else might need it.


This is not a hammerless gun. It does not have a decocking feature, either. It is reasonable to expect that there MIGHT be a time when the hammer may be required to be lowered while the gun is loaded, even if it is not a person's preferred practice.

 

[Skylerbone]

It is reasonable to expect that there MIGHT be a time when the hammer may be required to be lowered while the gun is loaded, even if it is not a person's preferred practice.

Well put. Something like failing to plan...

 

[tipoc]

A lot of folks are spooky about the 1911. It's odd you don't hear as much timidity about the BHP, but I suppose that's to be expected. I do read now and again of folks flummoxed by the idea that you might have the lower the hammer on a live round with the CZ75.

Get to know the gun and what it can do. Use it as it was designed or don't. If you don't have confidence that you can use the gun in other than condition one, either because you lack the skill to safely lower a hammer or rack a slide, or have the skill but prefer not to use the other modes, then use it as you feel best. But know that it can be safely used in other ways. It was designed for that.

The fear of lowering a hammer on a live round is frankly bizarre. "But my fingers may slip", well don't let them. Or avoid all revolvers, lever action rifles, cowboy action shooting, etc.

The bizarre hesitation to use single action handguns because they are "too easy to shoot" and folks need dao guns, feed into a belief that shooters are so incompetent we need remedial education. It's a wonder we can drive motor vehicles and walk. Shoe laces should be outlawed, they may come loose and we could trip.

The constant cautions about using a 100 year old design are tedious and nanny like.

tipoc

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

If people here think it's scary to manually decock a 1911, imagine the spincter-pucker I had as a 1911 owner who had never handled a Beretta 92 and a salesman in a local gun store demonstrated the decocking feature in front of me without ever TELLING me what the bejeebers it was he was doing!

I was looking at the Beretta, as it's a beautiful weapon. And the safety looked like just that...a safety. I had no idea it was also a decocking device until the salesman talking to me about the gun picked it up and, without verifying it was free and clear, cocked the gun and said "Watch this neat feature!" and decocked it.



My spincter had cramped so hard I nearly had to duck walk out of the shop afterwards.



Needless to say, that prompted me to do a quick study on how this particular feature works safely without allowing the possibility of a ND.

 

[1911Tuner]

If people here think it's scary to manually decock a 1911, imagine the spincter-pucker I had as a 1911 owner who had never handled a Beretta 92.

Which brings up two points.

One being that I don't trust decocking levers the same way that I don't trust manual safeties. I know that the hammer is completely blocked, and I also know that mechanical things fail...so even with a decocking lever, I still control the hammer with my thumb. For one thing, the steel on steel impact bothers me.

And...

The early Berettas had frame mounted manual safeties and no decocking feature. I owned one for a time, and liked the pistol very much. Being that it was double-action, it was assumed that if one opted to carry it in Condition Two, manually lowering the hammer would be a requirement...and thousands of early M92 owners (1976-1983) accepted it and lowered the hammers.

As a side note, the M92's little brother...the .380 caliber M84...was also a double-action pistol with frame-mounted safety and no decocking feature, as was its single-stack predecessor. I have an early Model 84 and it's a nice little pistol.

In order to meet requirements of some law enforcement agencies, Beretta modified the Model 92 by adding a slide-mounted combined safety and decocking lever, replacing the frame mounted manual thumb safety. This modification was adopted by the US military as the M9.

I hear two mantras repeated often.

"Cocked and Locked, the way JMB intended!" which isn't based in fact, and:

"Never use the half-cock as a safe carry mode because it's not a safety and was never meant to be a safety!" when it is, in fact, a safety and was intended to be used as a safety by John Mose' even though the addition of the manual safety pretty much negated the use of the half-cock. Says so right there in the patents.

The constant cautions about using a 100 year old design are tedious and nanny like.

I agree. People have been lowering hammers since hammers appeared. Yes, it's a little risky. Decocking isn't normally something that's done in a mad rush. Take your time and be careful.

 

[1911Tuner]

And...

Since this one has devolved into: "If you're skeered to carry it cocked and locked the way it was intended, get a revolver!"

like I knew that it would...

Time to put it to bed.

Ladies and laddies...Be well.