lowering hammers

[1911Tuner]

Mike...That's the beauty of the 1911 design. Browning and the rest of the committee gave us a choice on our preferred carry mode. Even half-cocked is a safety position, stated clearly in the patents. To wit:

"When the hammer is in the firing position, (cocked) should it become necessary to lower it to the safety position without touching the firing pin..." (half-cocked) and he goes on to describe the method for lowering the hammer with one hand.

Given the army's mandate to maintain the pistol in Condition Three unless "Action is iminent" I might even venture to guess that half-cock was unofficially authorized as a safe carry mode on or near the front lines...but probably not for garrisoned troops.

I've had a few heated discussions over half-cock being a safety. Assuming the original captive half-cock notch, my point standard point has been "When on half cock...the sear and hammer are locked together. Neither one can move, and the gun can't be fired by pulling the trigger. If that doesn't meet the requirements for a safety, I'd like to know what does."

Anyway...Pretty good discussion.

Cheers all

 

[Lv4snobrdg]

The gun went bang becuase your friend was negligent. Either he tripped, or if it discharged because the trigger was "jiggled," he fubared the gun.

While I have the utmost sympathy for his family this reserve police officer was a victim of his own folly.

The gun went bang because the individual had a 1 1/2 trigger pull and somehow while pulling it out of a IWB holster, his hand around the grip, the trigger was jiggled, the gun discharged.

Why have such a light trigger? Did he like telling people "she's got a hair trigger"? Jiggled by his finger most likely. I think the sad summary is in your second to last sentence.

To be honest, people didn't like to be around him because of his cowboy attitude, but still his family mourned him.

Cowboy as an adjective I would use cavalier in this instance...R.I.P.

 

[1911Tuner]

Why have such a light trigger?

Another point of contention for me, and always has been. 3-pound match grade triggers have their place...but not in a duty holster.

 

[AKElroy]

Typical 1911's have a progressive weighting to the hammer that starts light & gets heavy as it is lowered through its stroke. Since they lack a transfer bar, one must go through the dangerous step of having the trigger pulled until the hammer is nearly all the way home to avoid resting on the half-cock. I have had it slip off my oily thumb once after cleaning & reloading, with a .45 cal slug in a ceiling rafter to show for it.

I now carry my 1911 C&L; no reason to have the repeated risk. As for revolvers, one does not have to cock it to load it, and the hammer can be fully released under a carefull thumb without the trigger being held down, nearly all modern 6 guns have a transfer bar that makes ND less likely.

My Glocks are C&L when loaded, and they lack a grip saftey. One should not be afraid of C&L just because we can see that cocked hammer.

 

[1911Tuner]

Typical 1911's have a progressive weighting to the hammer that starts light & gets heavy as it is lowered through its stroke.

It's driven by a coil spring. How does a spring apply more force as tension is relieved?

 

[Lv4snobrdg]

Another point of contention for me, and always has been. 3-pound match grade triggers have their place...but not in a duty holster.

Cavalier: adj
1. Showing arrogant or offhand disregard; dismissive: a cavalier attitude toward the suffering of others.
2. Carefree and nonchalant; jaunty.

While I am deeply sorry for the loss, this type of event doesn't serve anyone's interests with the exception of the anti-gun/carry people, I can not say that this was an accident. Accident implies that nothing could be done to prevent it. Earthquakes are accidents.

Cars don't get into crashes, people do, poor decisions at key moments. Now if a tree falls your car, thats an accident.

A calamity of errors culminating in catastrophe is not an accident. A lighter trigger pull, a clicked off safety, an IWB carry, a "cowboy", a draw (was it a necessary draw??), and finally a finger (my pointer is my primary safety) on the trigger (before a target in sights).

I am not saying this man "deserved" this either. I am saying that he was an active participant in setting this up and while I wish no one had been hurt at all, it is extremely fortunate that some one else didn't get hurt by his negligent discharge of his firearm.

Just cuz you are a cop does NOT mean you are competent with a firearm.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1_EoRZOVes

The dude in this video should be in jail, discharge of a firearm on school grounds and an idiot.

 

[Lv4snobrdg]

Typical 1911's have a progressive weighting to the hammer that starts light & gets heavy as it is lowered through its stroke.

Not mine..do you have empirical evidence to back this up?

Since they lack a transfer bar, one must go through the dangerous step of having the trigger pulled until the hammer is nearly all the way home to avoid resting on the half-cock.

Why were you dropping the hammer on a loaded chamber?

I have had it slip off my oily thumb once after cleaning & reloading, with a .45 cal slug in a ceiling rafter to show for it.

Why were you doing so with hands that were not oil free and clean? Was there anyone upstairs?

I now carry my 1911 C&L; no reason to have the repeated risk.

Don't want to assume anything, but my "interpretation" of this statement is "I have made a mistake and now I am scared"

Not trying to fight with you. I am not scared of my weapon, I have a healthy respect for it and I drop the hammer with both hands never assuming that the weapon is not loaded.

My Glocks are C&L when loaded, and they lack a grip safety.

The only safety that matters is the safety practiced by the operator.

 

[AKElroy]

It's driven by a coil spring. How does a spring apply more force as tension is relieved?

I'm not a gunsmith, but it seems to me the hammer movement is cammed for progression, allowing for more mechanical advantage late in the stroke with the same spring rate, at least on my series 80 enhanced w/ combat hammer. It is far lighter when initially released, and about half-way through its stroke becomes quite heavy. This is my only 1911, so I have no clue whether this is unique to my gun.

I will gladly revise my earlier post to specify "My" gun; and not that this is "typical" for 1911's.

 

[AKElroy]

Why were you doing so with hands that were not oil free and clean? Was there anyone upstairs?

It was 20 years ago, and it was a single story house. As for my oily hands, I had cleaned the gun and performed that step HUNDREDS of times, and had become complacent. As for the rest of your post, let me be the first to acknowledge MAKING MISTAKES. I did not post the tale of my ND to convince people my actions were the right way to go, quite the opposite.

As for the most important safety residing between one's ears, I completely agree. Apparently you have been blessed to not have your brain educated by mistakes. I have not been so fortunate.

 

[Lv4snobrdg]

As for the most important safety residing between one's ears, I completely agree. Apparently you have been blessed to not have your brain educated by mistakes. I have not been so fortunate.

My entire post is about mistakes. This is not a mistake I have ever made and it hasn't been from a lack of opportunity but from the experience of others and the correct education to know that if you drop the hammer on a loaded chamber you run the risk of discharge, after all that is what the frakking thing is designed to do. Round in chamber + drop hammer = bang! Because of this I refuse to own a weapon with a decocker, doesn't feel right and I could never trust it 100%, I don't like strikers but they have a place in our world.

Had guns since I was 12yo, I have never had an AD or an ND.

I like to think that these conversations we have here are not really for you and I, but for the 300 or so people/guests that read about our experiences on an hourly basis but do not register and post. These people benefit from our mistakes and willingness to discuss them here.

I acknowledge your mistakes (oily hands/complacency) and commend you for having the courage to put them to the written word. I also comment on your mistakes and ask questions that are on the fingertips of those who might be scared or otherwise disinclined to ask themselves.

If I had to call out a mistake I have made with a firearm there aren't any that were a danger to the public or illegal for the most part. Its not luck its awareness and using the tissue between my ears not my legs. I helped a friend purchase a handgun. Not a straw purchase he asked me to join him as he looked for one. I didn't have any indication that he was going to do what he did with it. He asked all the normal questions a newbie asks and after working the action on a few he bought a snub 38 a wise first purchase for anyone. The day he took his pistol home he shot himself.

Elroy that is my mistake. So...

Apparently you have been blessed to not have your brain educated by mistakes. I have not been so fortunate.

Thanks for this.

My education is common sense (AKA experience), military, private security and the NRA. I have never had to pump a round into my ceiling to learn anything. Did you also learn how to fix drywall?

 

[AKElroy]

Did you also learn how to fix drywall?

Toothpaste. I did climb into the attic to confirm no hole in the roof, found a bulged but not split 2X6 that had taken the full wrath of that 200 gr CorBon. I agree with & appreciate your response. Sorry for the loss of your friend.

 

[twofifty]

decocking made safe

Manually decocking most semis (those whose hammer is machined flat on the sides) can safely, easily and quickly be done by:

1. pinchgrip hammer sides with weak hand's thumb and middle finger.
2. place weak hand's index finger behind the hammer.
3. pull trigger.
4. lower hammer till it is past the half-cock notch.
5. release trigger.
6. remove index finger.
7. finish lowering with the pinchgrip as shown in 1.
Done.

Why is this safe? Well, if your pinch grip slips (much less likely to happen than only controlling the hammer with the strong hand thumb) your index finger prevents the hammer from hitting the firing pin.

This is similar in effect to those who place their weak hand thumb behind the hammer, and thumb it down with the strong hand.

This technique is used in many USPSA/IPSC Production division environments, as part of the Load and Make Ready procedure.

 

[GLOOB]

^^
Why in the world would you want to keep the trigger pulled until you get past the half cock notch? Seems like that would completely defeat one of the main purposes of the notch.

On most all guns, the "half" cock notch is actually closer to a "1/10th" cock notch. So to do it like you stated, you'd have to keep the trigger pulled nearly all the way down. What's the point of releasing the trigger AFTER all that, when you're already down to the point where the gun won't fire from a slip, anyway?

I prefer to let the hammer down to the half cock notch with finger off the trigger. This part is the danger-zone, afterall. It's nice to have a half cock notch as backup in case you slip, during this critical phase. Then repeat the procedure by pulling the trigger again to get it all the way down. Or just leave it on the half cock.

It's also easier to concentrate on the hammer if you let go of the trigger, first. Holding the trigger back is one more thing you don't need to be thinking about while lowering the hammer. On top of that, pulling the trigger is putting force on the gun in the wrong direction from what you want during this maneuver, whereas putting the trigger finger along the side of the frame helps your leverage.

***Now, if I understand, correctly, early model 1911's (and probably some current production ones) cannot be lowered from the half cock notch by pulling the trigger. So why wouldn't you just leave them on the half cock? Wouldn't that be as safe as fully decocking the gun?

 

[vaupet]

That's the beauty of this forum: it is a possibility to learn from the mistakes others make.
It is cheaper and safer to do so, as we might not live long enough to make all the possible mistakes ourselfs.

And because i'm pretty inexperienced, i specifically like my pistols, because they are equipped with decocking levers and DA-SA triggers, with a decent DA pull and I tend to use the safety on my Marlins while unloading.

greetings

peter

 

[AKElroy]

So why wouldn't you just leave them on the half cock? Wouldn't that be as safe as fully decocking the gun?

Many argue that leaving a loaded chamber with the hammer at half-cock is the most dangerous way to carry. With an inertial FP, dropping the gun on the hammer could create an ND if the half-cock fails. Not so with the hammer resting on the FP; the FP is not long enough to contact the primer, and at full rest no energy can be transfered to it should it be dropped.

 

[EddieNFL]

This technique is used in many USPSA/IPSC Production division environments, as part of the Load and Make Ready procedure.

With what model?

I shoot and officiated IPSC/IDPA for many years and I've never witnessed that. With a 1911 you won't do so at a match I direct.

 

[1911Tuner]

In its original guise, the captive half-cock notch was considered to be a safety position by none other than Browning himself. Whether he meant for it to be a viable carry mode is unknown because carry was never mentioned. Since the gun was...by concept and design a military weapon, and the intended holster provided full coverage and with a flap...it would have been much less likely to suffer a solid blow to the hammer in such a holster.

Also in its original guise...the wide spur hammer with its sharp, square corners forward...the pinch method of decocking was much less fumble prone. Correctly performed, decocking the hammer...regardless of design and regardless of the technique...isn't fraught with danger.

The trick is to get control of the hammer before touching the trigger rather than releasing it and trying to catch it. Let common sense and logic guide you...regardless of whether it's a 1911 pistol or a revolver or a Winchester carbine.

The other thing is to not let your attention wander and allow the gun to be pointed at anything important. Dirt is a good backstop. The planet is made of the stuff. Lacking that, a 2-foot thick stack of dry newsprint will suffice for a pistol. Rifles should be cleared before entering a dwelling unless the purpose for entering is to clear the dwelling of hostiles.

If the day ever comes that I lack the manual dexterity and the mental focus to lower a hammer without lighting one off....I'll put the guns away and take up tiddlywinks.

 

[Lv4snobrdg]

Manually decocking most semis (those whose hammer is machined flat on the sides) can safely, easily and quickly be done by:

1. pinchgrip hammer sides with weak hand's thumb and middle finger.
2. place weak hand's index finger behind the hammer.
3. pull trigger.
4. lower hammer till it is past the half-cock notch.
5. release trigger.
6. remove index finger.
7. finish lowering with the pinchgrip as shown in 1.
Done.

Why is this safe? Well, if your pinch grip slips (much less likely to happen than only controlling the hammer with the strong hand thumb) your index finger prevents the hammer from hitting the firing pin.

This is similar in effect to those who place their weak hand thumb behind the hammer, and thumb it down with the strong hand.

This technique is used in many USPSA/IPSC Production division environments, as part of the Load and Make Ready procedure.

This is flawed and borderline irresponsible. Most don't have the pain tolerance to allow their finger to be pinched between the hammer and the pin. Removing their finger suddenly and giving the hammer a path to the firing pin.

I shoot and officiated IPSC/IDPA for many years and I've never witnessed that. With a 1911 you won't do so at a match I direct.

I will shoot with you anytime.

Toothpaste. I did climb into the attic to confirm no hole in the roof, found a bulged but not split 2X6 that had taken the full wrath of that 200 gr CorBon. I agree with & appreciate your response. Sorry for the loss of your friend.

the house has character now. I know this is cold, but I don't mourn the loss as a loss, I consider it natural selection. Life isn't for everybody...

Why is it that everyone wants to find a work around to these simple rules:

1. If a weapon has to be cocked in order to load it (which is to say the process of loading it also cocks it)then that is how it is intended to be per the manufacturer.
2. If item 1 is how it is, the manufacturer has also likely built in a, more likely some meaning more than one, safety/s that has to be manipulated manually by the operator to make the weapon live.
3. If your weapon does not have a decocking lever then it is intended to remain cocked while it is loaded.
4. Going against the manufacturer is playing with fire while your shirt is drenched in gasoline and your are in a room full of natural gas and should not be done by anyone that is not of the utmost competence.
5. Half cock in my 1911 is a safety feature. It exists in the rare event that the hammer releases from the sear but not by a trigger pull. In my 1911's the half cock "notch" should catch the hammer before striking the pin. It is NOT there for us to use for carry or for any other reason that strikes our fancy. It is my sincere hope that I never, ever, have to find out if half cock works on my weapons.
6. Ultimately lowering the hammer on a chambered round is a bad idea.
7. Round in chamber + Dropping hammer = Bang, that is why we buy the damn things!!!

We hold these truths to be self evident. Skirt around them at your peril and the peril of those around you. Whether you are aware of their presence or not.

My opinion of course. How many share it with me?

 

[1911Tuner]

This is flawed and borderline irresponsible.

Instead of getting all knotted up...why not try it and see? Once you get the hang of it, it's really pretty simple. No need to put a finger between the hammer and pin, either. That's just an extra precaution if desired. It doesn't hurt your finger, either.

Half cock in my 1911 is a safety feature. It exists in the rare event that the hammer releases from the sear but not by a trigger pull. In my 1911's the half cock "notch" should catch the hammer before striking the pin. It is NOT there for us to use for carry or for any other reason that strikes our fancy.

Half cock was clearly described by John Browning as a safety position in the patents...so it apparently has a dual function. That you don't believe it doesn't change the reality. The captive half-cock notch is a de facto safety. Whether or not you as an individual choose to use it is a matter of personal preference the same as Conditions One/Two/Three. The options are there and all are valid...and all are safe...or at least as safe as a loaded gun can be.

Carrying on half-cock...or any other position...isn't the question here. The topic deals with lowering the hammer and nothing else.

Nether does the topic have anything to do with IDPA/USPSA or any other game practices and rules.

For the record...I don't carry the gun on half-cock and never have, but the fact remains is that it is, by design and intent...a safety position.

 

[Lv4snobrdg]

I do not dry fire when I put away my 1911.

The weapon is cleared. I pinch the hammer, pull it back, press the trigger and guide the hammer to rest.

You describe the half cock as a position of safety. I don't doubt this at all, nor do I argue it. I insist that the best safety is operator safety. Half-cock is described as a back up to prevent complete hammer fall is something I read not long ago in a Gun Digest book.

This is about lowering the hammer and half cock is part of the hammer operation, pretty certain one has allot to do with the other.

 

[1911Tuner]

Half-cock is described as a back up to prevent complete hammer fall is something I read not long ago in a Gun Digest book.

And...the editors of Guns'n'Stuff know more about the gun than the man who designed it?
Apparently they didn't read the patents, either. I only found it myself just recently,though I've always understood the half-cock to be a safety position just by the way that it functions.

Okay...Let's look at it from a purely mechanical and functional standpoint. Remember that we're talking about the original design here, and not any modern renditions such as the shelf found in Colt's Series 80 redesign.

If all the half-cock was intended to do was to act as an arresting device in the event of broken hammer hooks or sears...Why not just a simple, square shelf instead of a fully captive notch that disables the whole fire control group?

A square shelf would have served the same purpose, and it would have been much simpler to machine...not to mention cheaper...which is an important consideration in any manufacturing operation.

As for the Series 80 shelf...I suspect that Colt realized that nobody actually used the half-cock as a safety any more, and made it simpler...and cheaper...to act as hammer stopper.

 

[Arthur2001]

May be we may diffrenciate various autoloaders as follows;

Group 1-SA hanguns like Colt 1911, BHP MKIII etc..
Group 2- DA/SA handguns without hammer lowering feature like CZ 75B
Group 3- DA/SA handguns with hammer lowering feature like Beretta 92F, Cougar 8000F or S&W 3914

For Group 1 it is advisable to carry it cocked and locked or with empty chamber. (depending to the circumstances). There is really no reason to lower the hammer of a SA handgun. Since the hammer must pe manipulated before the frst shoot.

For Group2, if you have a habit to carry with a round in chamber in DA mode, you may try to lower the hammer. This might make sense. BUT in this case it is HIGHLY ADVISABLE to get rid of Group 2 handguns and try to get Group 3 ones.

 

[twofifty]

quoting gloob:
"Why in the world would you want to keep the trigger pulled until you get past the half cock notch? Seems like that would completely defeat one of the main purposes of the notch.

On most all guns, the "half" cock notch is actually closer to a "1/10th" cock notch. So to do it like you stated, you'd have to keep the trigger pulled nearly all the way down. What's the point of releasing the trigger AFTER all that, when you're already down to the point where the gun won't fire from a slip, anyway?"

On my handgun, a CZ75 SP-01 (a DA/SA hg), releasing the trigger before the hammer is past the half cock notch causes the hammer to stop at the notch. You are right that the notch stops the hammer much closer to the firing pin than half way there, so therefore my weak hand index finger is retrieved once the hammer is lowered to it.

When I perform the 7 steps mentioned in my post, all you would see is one smooth fluid motion. Breaking it into 7 steps makes it seem more laborious than it really is. Decocking is not at all stressful to me or to the many ROs that have been monitoring what I do at IPSC matches (as part of LAMR, in Production div.)

 

[twofifty]

With what model?

I shoot and officiated IPSC/IDPA for many years and I've never witnessed that. With a 1911 you won't do so at a match I direct.

With a CZ75 SP-01, DA/SA, in Production division.

After charging the gun at LAMR, I have to decock before holstering as the rule requires the first (start) shot to be DA only.

If I decocked a 1911 (Standard div., L10, etc.) at LAMR, using any technique, you would quite rightly DQ me from the rest of the match. Anyhow, as we know, in Std. or Ltd, the start is from a fully cocked holstered hg on safe, so no need to decock.

 

[twofifty]

Quoting Lv4snobrdg:
"This is flawed and borderline irresponsible. Most don't have the pain tolerance to allow their finger to be pinched between the hammer and the pin. Removing their finger suddenly and giving the hammer a path to the firing pin."

Instead of getting all knotted up...why not try it and see? Once you get the hang of it, it's really pretty simple. No need to put a finger between the hammer and pin, either. That's just an extra precaution if desired. It doesn't hurt your finger, either.

Thank you 1911tuner.

Lv4, give it a try it wont hurt you. We're talking flat-faced hammers in semis, not old-style revolver hammers. Anyhow, the idea is not to drop the hammer, but to pinch and control it as you lower it. Remove your index finger when it gets in the way and keep lowering the last little bit to full decock. This can be done in one fast fluid motion.