1911 Jammed after firing second shot

[azwizard]

1911 Tuner please weigh in as soon as you can, You've helped me in the past.

Guy's first off this is a gov't surplus shooter 1911 that I've had for a good many years.... It is not a collectors piece, lately it has been the go to gun as I shoot it really well and want to get it up and running again.

So I was shooting my 1911 Ithaca yesterday and on the second shot of the second clip it jammed closed (Remington factory ammo).... Fired the round but didn't try and eject that casing. Was unable to cycle it by hand so I unloaded the clip and shined a light down the barrel and was able to see a primer so I knew it was safe. I tried everything I could think to free it up of including Kroil oil and finally I had to knock it back with a 2x4 and dead blow hammer to get it apart so I could get the empty case out, then had to go the other way to field strip it.

The slide will not fit the frame anymore and I wasn't sure why?

I went over to a budies to day as he has a couple of 1911's and I wanted to try interchanging parts to see if I could figure out where the problem was and the fitting/testing showed that it seems my slide is the culprit.

My frame would fit all of his slides but my slide wouldn't fit any of his frames.

Getting out the magnifiying glass, it looks like the end of my slide by the firing pin, on one side, the rail is (bent) slightly inward to the center of the pistol almost like it was dropped, but it wasn't.

There are some peening marks made by some smith at some point in the guns past (it is over 90 years old) where that area of the slide has been peened or punched (Knurled) to make the slide tighter.

What could cause this during firing? Where should I start? I have a lathe and mill, and I am pretty handy. I ve headspaced my own rifles a time or two so for the most part am willing to try fitting the slide again but should I?

 

[Mac's Precision]

Pictures of the slide and frame rails as well as the barrel hood and locking lugs would would be great at this point.

Is there evidence of galling on the frame rails? How tight is the slide to frame fit? When the gun was operating...was the slide action smooth and free or was it quite tight and showed zero play side to to side? When this occured was the gun rather dry or properly lubed?

Initially it sounds almost like the gun has had the frame peened and the slide squeezed to tighten the fit but wasn't properly lapped to achieve a proper fit. If the gun was dry it could have galled to a stand still. Further there is a chance that the gun was attempted to be lapped and the compound wasn't ever totally removed and has bedded in the slide rails...progressivly chewing away and abrading the surface of the frame rail.

Was it running properly prior to this siezure or was the slide progressively slow on closing? How many rounds have you personally put through the gun since you had it? You say it is a surplus gun but has it had accuracy work done to it to attempt to make it a better shooter? Different barrel? Diffferent bushing? Slide tightened and aftermarket parts..?

Lets have a little more info...we'll see if we can help
Cheers
Mac.

 

[1911Tuner]

Check the barrel for a bulge. It sounds like you had a squib, and the second round knocked the stuck bullet loose.

I know it sounds strange, but a squib that sticks one will sometimes cycle the slide, and chamber another round. I watched it happen once...was actually watching the gun while another shooter was firing it. I knew that the bullet didn't exit because the plate didn't fall and no dirt was kicked up on the berm. Before I could stop her...she pulled the trigger. The gun locked up solid. The stainless barrel split at 3 and 9. Stainless barrels will split from firing into a squib, while stainless barrels will just dog-knot, and the bushing can't get past the bulge.

 

[azwizard]

Mac, I'll try and get to the pictures as soon as I can, I live in a remote part of Northern Michigan now and I sometimes have issues with my internet on the uploading. But I can run to the library and get a more reliable connection there.

"Is there evidence of galling on the frame rails?" NO "How tight is the slide to frame fit?" Very "When the gun was operating...was the slide action smooth and free or was it quite tight and showed zero play side to to side?" it was very tight but free and smooth as butter When this occured was the gun rather dry or properly lubed? Lubed



"Was it running properly prior to this siezure or was the slide progressively slow on closing?" Nope every thing seemed normal "How many rounds have you personally put through the gun since you had it?" Over the coarse of 20 + years 10K I"m sure.

 

[azwizard]

Mac,
"You say it is a surplus gun but has it had accuracy work done to it to attempt to make it a better shooter?" Not by me but there is evidence of it. "Different barrel?" marked National Match Diffferent bushing? OKSlide tightened (Peened)and aftermarket parts..?(yes)

Yes it was running very smooth right up till it failed.

Tuner,

I know it wasnt a squib as the grapefruit made a large splash for all 7 shots fired. I only load 5 rounds per magazine... Too long in the military for anything else.....Lol.

I can't see a split in the barrel but the bushing moves freely up and down the barrel. I'll test the barrel to slide lock up a little later tonight.

 

[1911Tuner]

Ok. Not a squib, then. Odd...

Look at the left side of the slide, top of the port, near the back. Look closely for a crack there.

 

[Jim K]

Since the 1911 is a recoil operated pistol, the movement of the bullet forward will often cause enough recoil to operate the gun even though the bullet doesn't have enough force to exit.

If the slide didn't strike anything, and the gun was not dropped, the only thing I can think of is that the part of the slide that had been peened gave in to stress. There may be a crack in that area also. If you do get the slide to working, it may very well break or crack in the future.

(BTW, an Ithaca M1911A1 is not 90 years old, more like 66.)

Jim

 

[azwizard]

Tuner,

That is where I thought is was bent in a little. I have to wait till morning for better light in the garage so I can use the magnifiying glass. But I didn't see a crack with my naked eyes, old as they are getting... LOL. Your beggining to scare me though.

Jim,

Your theory of strees is just as disturbing as thaat is what I've been worried about. While I might be willing and able to peen/open the slide backup and then re-lapp it in. It still brings to mind the question of should I? And Jim as far as I can tell from the 394XXX serial number it was manufactured around 1917. If I'm wrong please let me know, thats just what I've been able to descifer from google.

 

[Mac's Precision]

Screeeeeeeeeeeetch.....out comes the podium..

One must question the merits of slide and frame peening / squeezing adjustments. I have pondered the ACTUAL results from this process many a time. I have done it a lot at customer's requests but the effect does make one wonder.

I have built several 1911's that were factory tolerance "slop" if you will that shot quite well better than "combat accurate". My feeling here is that the critical issue with regard to accuracy lies in the barrel fit, barrel quality, and chambering, the lead in as well as head space. Specifically in the locking lug depth of engagement..tight barrel hood and bushing to barrel / slide fit. The theory being that the barrel locks to the slide....the sights are on the slide. If the barrel lock up in the slide is quite good then the accuracy one might suffer from slide movement is nil. Clearly if the gun is loose enough to throw a cat through...then yes there is enough tolerance that repeatable barrel lock up would be tough to achieve. That and the slide probably wobbles side to side...through several minutes of arc

But striving for a slide to frame fit that is damn near too tight for oil seems a bit silly... A factory gun that might have .008 slide slop will shoot pretty darn good provided the barrel is fit properly and the trigger is clean. I recently put a Colt together that was an OLD GI frame...with a 80's vintage Colt slide. It fit pretty well. I installed a gunsmith fit barrel for optimal lock up. It had .058 thousands lug fit.... .000 zero light gap hood fit.... a hard fit bushing with .002 barrel to bushing fit. I didn't tighten the slide at first. I shot it...and saw a slightly over 2 inch group at 25 yards. One ragged hole at 50 feet. I then snugged the slide up...peened the rails...lapped and reassembled... Well...There was a change in group...about 1/4 inch at 25 yards...still a ragged hole at 50 feet.

So now you see the question to peening and squeezing slides. It does make them seem markedly more "quality" when they operate...but I just don't see the merit in it for all practical purposes. In a race gun it will buy you more time between tune ups as it starts out tighter. BUT if there is a question of imparting stress ...is it worth it? For a combat carry gun I would be totally content with a gun that shot 2 inches at 25 and a hole at 50. Many of the current crop of "combat" guns al a Glock, XD, M&P....won't do that well much of the time.

I think the process of customizing the 1911 has become such a set bunch of events that includes a good peen and squish job. I for one...WILL do it....but I suspect that the value of that process isn't as weighty as most people suggest.

I am done ......away with the podium....

Flame away...
Cheers
Mac.

 

[1911Tuner]

I'm in agreement with Mac. Accuracy is more about barrel to slide than slide to frame.
I've peened rails to reduce vertical slop, but very little squeezing on the slide...only if the side-to-side slop is really ragged, and even then, I don't shoot for a tight fit.

It doesn't seem that a crack in the port would cause it to bend in, but I guess anything is possible. A crack there is due to recoil stresses, and if it's cracked...the slide is a paperweight because it spreads every time you fire it, effectively increasing headspace and increasing the length of the crack...which leads to more headspace increase...until the case backs up in the chamber far enough to blow in the unsupported area ahead of the web.

Many people don't understand that the slides didn't get through-and-through heat treating until mid 1946. The WW2 era slides were spot hardened in certain areas, and had hardened inserts in the breechface...but aside from that, they were dead soft.

 

[Jim K]

On the gun itself, it must be a mismatch as no Ithacas were made in 1917. So you have a WWI vintage frame with a WWII era slide.

My point was that "squeezing" slides was a common practice years ago, and it set up stresses in the slide that could have unpredictable results later. A crack elsewhere in the slide could also alter the stressed area by releasing other stresses. I don't know that is what happened, but I think it could have and would explain the condition you describe.

You may be able to get the slide back to working, and the fix might last for years. Or get worse with each shot.

Jim

 

[azwizard]

Success!!!!

Looking at things in the bright magnified light of day I didn't see any cracks anywhere in the frame or rails area.

Tuner, your comment about the lack of heat treating gave me pause initially and then Jims comment about peening and giving into the stress gave me an idea.......

Rather than try and peen it back I let it stay sprung. If that's where it wanted to be fine rather than stress the metal again I just gave the one side of the slide a couple of swipes with a small diamond flat file and then stoned it about 75% of the time and 25% the other side. Once I got the two pieces to fit back together again I lapped it about 800 times with some toothpaste and baking soda mixed with gun oil and it was soon running smooth again.

Jim, You could still be right in that the fix may only be temporary, but I reasoned that if it kind of sprung back and I just let it be, where else could it go????

So, I crossed my fingers and 15 rounds later everything still seems copasetic. Nice tight little groups. I'll have to pick up some more ammo and give it about 200 rounds or so to feel completely confident about the repair but I do feel a little relieved that so far so good!

If things are good I'll pipe up in a couple of weeks and let you know, otherwise I'll be reposting the current issue and looking for some more guidance. Thanks again for all the help....

 

[1911Tuner]

Still tryin' to wrap my head around this. Can't see how a slide would bend during a string of fire to the point of binding unless somethin' busted.

 

[azwizard]

Tuner,

I bow to your expertice but that's the way it happened, two shots into the second clip it locked up tight. And I looked really hard for the better part of an hour under my glass and couldn't find a crack or even a scratch line anywhere so nothing seems to be busted.

I wonder if Jim may have been right when he queried "what are the long term effects of peening or squeezing of slides?" I did't do it originaly and I chose not to do it this time. But there was evidence on the slide both inside and out where it had been done sometime in the past.

What if it's like I posed and it chose now too just spring, back? At any rate it's running smooth again and I'll have to see if it lasts, if it does great I get to keep plinking with an old friend and if not, I'll fix it again and retire it. Much as that will sadden me.

 

[azwizard]

Tuner,

Also you mentioned the lack of heat treating maybe that had something to do with it..