Chris Rhines
Member
I read nothing particularly offensive in the article, although I'd disagree that the Novak sights are any kind of saving grace...
- Chris
- Chris
1911 Kb
- Thread starter rick_reno
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I aggree that some people shouldn't own guns too...I don't think it is the Governments place (or anyone else's) to decide who though, I'll leave that to Darwin. That's the way I read that particular comment as well.
Even though the gun's ugliness had nothing to do with the incident, I'm glad that poor, once proud, series 70 was euthanized and spared further embarrassment at the hands of this student.
Even though the gun's ugliness had nothing to do with the incident, I'm glad that poor, once proud, series 70 was euthanized and spared further embarrassment at the hands of this student.
"We had the same thing happen at our local IDPA shoot this morning"
I shot a match last Tuesday night where a guy fired a .40 S&W round out of a Ruger .45 ACP. He realized something was wrong and stopped. He was shooting factory ammo and doesn't even own a .40 S&W. The round came from the factory packaged in a box of .45 ACP cartridges. Of course the brass expanded to fill the .45 ACP chamber which resulted in the case spliting numerous times. The extractor didn't clear the fired case and it had to be knocked out with a squib rod. I never did get an answer as to whether or not he hit anything.
"He supposed to be in the business of training people and should be training them to be safe. Looks like he failed, eh?"
Aw, no. If you read the article you will see that he clearly stated that he was not teaching the class.
At the two firearms schools I have been to (including Gunsite) they strongly advise you not to pick ammo up off the ground. They tell you that they wouldn't do it themselves. However, I don't think they can tell you that you can't pick up your own ammo or brass: they just tell you it isn't a good idea and they wouldn't do it (this is the horse and water thing).
And as Pat mentioned in the article, he doesn't allow you to bend over on the line until everyone is clear and he gives the command.
Picking up ammo on the ground is kind of a hard habit to break. I do it all the time when I am shooting here at home. At these gun schools, you probably end up losing 50-100 rounds of ammo on the ground between malfunction clearence drills, actual malfunctions, dropping it by accident, clearing your gun and not catching the round etc. My first impulse is to pick it up and I sometimes do, but it isn't a good idea. I think Pat sums it up quite well: is your gun worth the couple cents that you would give up by leaving the round lying right where it is ? Is it really worth it to introduce sand into your chamber and barrel in order to not waste a couple cents on that round ? He is right, but old habits die hard.
As for his comments on the gun itself, I have mixed feelings. IMO, a good instructor will tell you what makes up a good gun for the purposes he is training you for based on his experience (and with Pat, that experience is extensive). In today's society everyone wants to be PC and not hurt anyone's feelings. For me, I would much rather just have someone tell me straight out when I am making a mistake. I am not so weak that I can't take it. I would rather be embarrased and learn from my mistakes than have someone that knows better not tell me I am making a mistake in order to be PC. That is counterproductive to the whole purpose of being there. The purpose of being there is to learn, not have your ego massaged.
I shot a match last Tuesday night where a guy fired a .40 S&W round out of a Ruger .45 ACP. He realized something was wrong and stopped. He was shooting factory ammo and doesn't even own a .40 S&W. The round came from the factory packaged in a box of .45 ACP cartridges. Of course the brass expanded to fill the .45 ACP chamber which resulted in the case spliting numerous times. The extractor didn't clear the fired case and it had to be knocked out with a squib rod. I never did get an answer as to whether or not he hit anything.
"He supposed to be in the business of training people and should be training them to be safe. Looks like he failed, eh?"
Aw, no. If you read the article you will see that he clearly stated that he was not teaching the class.
At the two firearms schools I have been to (including Gunsite) they strongly advise you not to pick ammo up off the ground. They tell you that they wouldn't do it themselves. However, I don't think they can tell you that you can't pick up your own ammo or brass: they just tell you it isn't a good idea and they wouldn't do it (this is the horse and water thing).
And as Pat mentioned in the article, he doesn't allow you to bend over on the line until everyone is clear and he gives the command.
Picking up ammo on the ground is kind of a hard habit to break. I do it all the time when I am shooting here at home. At these gun schools, you probably end up losing 50-100 rounds of ammo on the ground between malfunction clearence drills, actual malfunctions, dropping it by accident, clearing your gun and not catching the round etc. My first impulse is to pick it up and I sometimes do, but it isn't a good idea. I think Pat sums it up quite well: is your gun worth the couple cents that you would give up by leaving the round lying right where it is ? Is it really worth it to introduce sand into your chamber and barrel in order to not waste a couple cents on that round ? He is right, but old habits die hard.
As for his comments on the gun itself, I have mixed feelings. IMO, a good instructor will tell you what makes up a good gun for the purposes he is training you for based on his experience (and with Pat, that experience is extensive). In today's society everyone wants to be PC and not hurt anyone's feelings. For me, I would much rather just have someone tell me straight out when I am making a mistake. I am not so weak that I can't take it. I would rather be embarrased and learn from my mistakes than have someone that knows better not tell me I am making a mistake in order to be PC. That is counterproductive to the whole purpose of being there. The purpose of being there is to learn, not have your ego massaged.
Mylhouse
Member
I don't care who that Pat Rogers guy is. He sounds like a know-it-all jerk to me and I wouldn't bother taking a class he taught.
wildehond
Member
Squared trigger guard:
It was very popular in the '80's for the finger forward hold. The main problem was to get a d#@m holster to put the gun in.
Trainers:
The wirter of that article reminds me of Sargent Major in the army that used to jump on your back on the shooting range when you did something stupid. I can remember very few of the things that he taught me.
But... I can remember almost everything that a Reconniassance Commando intructor taught me on house clearing and urban warfare. He was very strict, but always civil and curtious. Oviously there was the obligatory extra P.T. for the things that was done wrong, but it was al done very controlled and in a good manner. It was a very hard course, but I loved it and I will always remember what he thaught me. It has kept me alive in the military and one time in civilian life aswell.
What I am trying to say is that you do not have to ridicule people to get there attention and repect.
wildehond
It was very popular in the '80's for the finger forward hold. The main problem was to get a d#@m holster to put the gun in.
Trainers:
The wirter of that article reminds me of Sargent Major in the army that used to jump on your back on the shooting range when you did something stupid. I can remember very few of the things that he taught me.
But... I can remember almost everything that a Reconniassance Commando intructor taught me on house clearing and urban warfare. He was very strict, but always civil and curtious. Oviously there was the obligatory extra P.T. for the things that was done wrong, but it was al done very controlled and in a good manner. It was a very hard course, but I loved it and I will always remember what he thaught me. It has kept me alive in the military and one time in civilian life aswell.
What I am trying to say is that you do not have to ridicule people to get there attention and repect.
wildehond
lol
i didn't think the gun looked that bad except for the trigger shoe. the guy made a mistake a big one. you don't just pick a bullet up and shove it in the pipe. you have to be serious and seriously carefull. thats how alot of accidents happen, by not paying attention.
had
BluesBear
member
No it's not. You just disn't realize it.
Look up "been there, done that" in the dictionary and you'll probaly find his picture.
But don't worry about him, several jackasses that weren't fit to pick up his range brass ran him off THR a few months ago.
Personally I agree with him. Any MORON who grabs a strange round off the the firing line (it's obvious it wasn't even his round) and loads it without inspection is an IMBECILE. And such IDIOTs are dangerous to be around.
I can only imagine if this had happened at your local range. What would you be saying if a local range ninja picked up a live round, tossed it in hs magazine without looking, let off a few rounds until KABOOM and a piece of flying steel zinged you in the temple?
I'll wager you'd be right here telling us what a NUMBSKULL this guy was and how we should be chlorinating the gene pool.
As for the trigger shoe comment, try to find anyone who knows their arse from their elbows who still uses a trigger shoe on a semi-auto pistol. They were considered dangerous and foolhardy 50 years ago. They are so uncommon nowadays in fact that some of you didn't even know what they were. There's a reason for that. They fall off at the most inconvienient times and they make a semi-automatic pistol DANGEROUS.
What surprises me is that Gunsite let this BUFFOON on the firing line with it.
Snowdog
Member
- Joined
- Dec 24, 2002
- Messages
- 4,608
Such a condemning editorial can be written for the majority of accidental and negligent discharges one reads on this board.
"Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the cheapest of the pleasures; costs nothing and conveys much. It pleases him who gives and him who receives, and thus, like mercy, it is twice blessed."
-Erastus Wiman
"Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the cheapest of the pleasures; costs nothing and conveys much. It pleases him who gives and him who receives, and thus, like mercy, it is twice blessed."
-Erastus Wiman
Jeff Timm
Member
I agree with the article. Poor instruction. Did the instructor even inspect the pistol his student was using?
It has been many years since I was an instructor (firearms that is) I required the Squad leaders to inspect the weapons. Then taught the students to inspect the weapons prior to use. Range proceedure also required "rodding" the rifles entering and leaving the range.
Military instruction tends to be loud, and unfortunately, back in the 1970's inadequate. "There I wuz surrounded by 100 or so women, all wearing combat boots and holding M-16A1s..."
I would also like to know what the cheif said to the instructor who was teaching the student in question.
Geoff
Who still remembers certain stupidities on his part.
It has been many years since I was an instructor (firearms that is) I required the Squad leaders to inspect the weapons. Then taught the students to inspect the weapons prior to use. Range proceedure also required "rodding" the rifles entering and leaving the range.
Military instruction tends to be loud, and unfortunately, back in the 1970's inadequate. "There I wuz surrounded by 100 or so women, all wearing combat boots and holding M-16A1s..."
I would also like to know what the cheif said to the instructor who was teaching the student in question.
Geoff
Who still remembers certain stupidities on his part.
ID_shooting
Member
Ok, I agree that the student did foolish and hazardous thing; but, to openly question his right to exist!?!?!
I have worked many ranges as an armorer, it was my job to instruct the rest of the company on proper weapon maintenace and zeroing techniques. No matter how bad Pvt. numbskull messed up his weapon (and there were quite a few) I never treated anyone this bad. Bad JUJU as far as I am concerned.
I may have ordered my fair share of remeidial exercises, but I always tried to treat even the lowest ranking and lowest common sense having people with the upmost respect.
I have worked many ranges as an armorer, it was my job to instruct the rest of the company on proper weapon maintenace and zeroing techniques. No matter how bad Pvt. numbskull messed up his weapon (and there were quite a few) I never treated anyone this bad. Bad JUJU as far as I am concerned.
I may have ordered my fair share of remeidial exercises, but I always tried to treat even the lowest ranking and lowest common sense having people with the upmost respect.
JNewell
Member
.40/.45 is not an uncommon error, and you don't have to be picking up rounds off the deck for it to happen. I've found .40 rounds in boxes of .45 at schools and have assumed that it was students unloading .40 mags in the wrong boxes. Could be packaging error by the factory, too, I guess.
mfree
Member
Confused say, "round on floor is there for a reason".
George Hill
Member
Dean Spier is a member here in good standing and we will not allow him to be insulted, just like we will not allow any other member to be insulted.
His website is his own venue for his opinion. He can say what he wants there.
And he is right. The guy was stupid.
I disagree about the gun being ugly, other than the squared trigger guard... but that's not the point.
Whatever.
We all have our own opinions.
My opinion is that this thread has outlived it's usefullness.
His website is his own venue for his opinion. He can say what he wants there.
And he is right. The guy was stupid.
I disagree about the gun being ugly, other than the squared trigger guard... but that's not the point.
Whatever.
We all have our own opinions.
My opinion is that this thread has outlived it's usefullness.
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