1911 or AK for HD
- Thread starter Dr.Mall Ninja
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charliehustle10
Member
Is this thread for real? Maybe if I was concerned about assailants wearing body armor, I would consider an AK, but that's highly unlikely.
I'd go with the 1911 personally, but that's just because my wife and I are expecting a child and I have wrestled with the idea of how to keep a long arm accessible yet safe from youngins.
I bought a .45 just for the reason that it was a high caliber weapon that could be easily locked away at my bedside away from curious fingers yet could be pressed into CCW service. It's not a 1911, but that's a moot point.
If it were me, I would keep the .45 at the ready in the night stand and have a plan to make my way to an accessible long arm. My shotgun and rifles and other handguns are locked in a cabinet. However, the magazines are loaded for most of them. If I were in a do or die situation, I would rush to the cabinet and kick the door in (easily done. it's pretty cheap). I would not feel under gunned with any .45 pistol getting there.
I bought a .45 just for the reason that it was a high caliber weapon that could be easily locked away at my bedside away from curious fingers yet could be pressed into CCW service. It's not a 1911, but that's a moot point.
If it were me, I would keep the .45 at the ready in the night stand and have a plan to make my way to an accessible long arm. My shotgun and rifles and other handguns are locked in a cabinet. However, the magazines are loaded for most of them. If I were in a do or die situation, I would rush to the cabinet and kick the door in (easily done. it's pretty cheap). I would not feel under gunned with any .45 pistol getting there.
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
the OP doesn't say whether he's in a suburb area but if so then over-penetration is definitely a concern. my .02 as said earlier get a good 10 rd mag for the 1911 and practice useing a flashlight which means a few trips to the range for shooting in the dark practice.
my bedside pistol is a Makarov with a SXS 12ga coach leaned in near corner and a Marlin Camp .45acp with 10 rd mag loaded with +P hp's hanging on hook in the closet. I live 500' off the pavement and there's homes around me about that distance away- overpenetration is a concern for me.
my bedside pistol is a Makarov with a SXS 12ga coach leaned in near corner and a Marlin Camp .45acp with 10 rd mag loaded with +P hp's hanging on hook in the closet. I live 500' off the pavement and there's homes around me about that distance away- overpenetration is a concern for me.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
.308 =! .223.
The fact that a heavy .308 round and a lightweight .223 JHP may both be fired out of AK-style rifles does not mean that the .223 JHP will act like a .308.
Light .223 JHP's are an ideal in-home self-defense round, and penetrate less, not more, than handgun rounds.
Civilian .223 JHP's typically penetrate less in building materials than .45 or 9mm JHP. Yes, the velocity and energy are higher, but a 55-grain JHP at 3000 ft/sec is waaaaay more fragile than a 230-grain JHP at 850 ft/sec.
Why would the .223 be FMJ? Civilians aren't limited to FMJ .223 any more than we are limited to FMJ .45 ACP. By far the best defensive loads for .223 are civilian JHP's and SP's, not FMJ.
Assuming the rifle has a civilian-length barrel (16" minimum), peak decibels are comparable between a .223 and any centerfire pistol, and considerably lower than a .357 revolver.
Out of the same length barrel, pistol calibers are quieter, but a 4" .45 and a 16"-18" .223 aren't much different. A flash suppressor on the carbine is a good idea, though.
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Bailey Guns
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I generally believe missing, rather than overpenetration, would be a bigger concern.
Benezra I am sure you know what you are talking about, and you seem very knowledgeable.
I have no idea where you got your info but I dont doubt it is probably correct.
I can tell you without any shadow of doubt, from personal real world experiance.
Shooting a .223 indoors our of a 16 inch barrel, is louder than a 4 inch barreled 9mm. And theoretically a 9mm should be louder than a 45 yes?
Again I am not looking to pick a fight, but my experiance has been completly different. the 223 was not only louder, it rocked my world completly.
I have no idea where you got your info but I dont doubt it is probably correct.
I can tell you without any shadow of doubt, from personal real world experiance.
Shooting a .223 indoors our of a 16 inch barrel, is louder than a 4 inch barreled 9mm. And theoretically a 9mm should be louder than a 45 yes?
Again I am not looking to pick a fight, but my experiance has been completly different. the 223 was not only louder, it rocked my world completly.
LS240
Member
Exactly. The only thing I'd like to add is that the FMJ rounds are no more an over-penetration risk than frangible or JHP .223 rounds. As I said, at 2700+fps, they reliably destabilize and fragment in soft tissue, doing every bit as much damage or more than a good JHP. Out of a 16in barrel, .223 is easily over 2700fps at anything that anyone could ever describe as "home defense" range. I'm speaking of course about the standard M193 ball ammo. M855 62gr FMJ performs similarly but I can't say what other types will do.
Just to reiterate, .223 is no more an overpenetration risk, whether through people or through walls, than is .45.
Aran
member
The AK.
sv51macross
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Well, if it's possible to keep a prosecutor from calling rape 'rape', then why not try to prevent the prosecutor from calling a SLR-106 or Saiga an AK-47?
mljdeckard
Member
I never grab a pistol first if I have time to grab anything else.
Where I LIVE, I'm not nearly as worried about the fact that it was an AK being used against me. I think it has to actually make it to court before a prosecutor can try that angle. That chance is remote, but far from impossible. Still, I want to survive for the court date. First things first.
AKs/SKSs/ARs etc are fine for self defense when you use good ammo. (Hornady TAP.) But honestly, I would look hard at a basic defensive shotgun, loaded with #4 or 00 buck. This wouldn't cost much, and is hard to demonize.
My EDC is a 1911. When things go bump in the night, it's not what I'm grabbing. IDEALLY, it would be good to have a long gun AND the sidearm as backup, but in the middle of the night, crawling out of bed, I don't see myself having time to put all my ninja gear on. My wife will get behind the bed with the M-1 carbine, with the 1911 as backup, on the phone to the police.
Where I LIVE, I'm not nearly as worried about the fact that it was an AK being used against me. I think it has to actually make it to court before a prosecutor can try that angle. That chance is remote, but far from impossible. Still, I want to survive for the court date. First things first.
AKs/SKSs/ARs etc are fine for self defense when you use good ammo. (Hornady TAP.) But honestly, I would look hard at a basic defensive shotgun, loaded with #4 or 00 buck. This wouldn't cost much, and is hard to demonize.
My EDC is a 1911. When things go bump in the night, it's not what I'm grabbing. IDEALLY, it would be good to have a long gun AND the sidearm as backup, but in the middle of the night, crawling out of bed, I don't see myself having time to put all my ninja gear on. My wife will get behind the bed with the M-1 carbine, with the 1911 as backup, on the phone to the police.
General Geoff
Member
ANY unsuppressed firearm will deafen you indoors, sans hearing protection. A .45ACP handgun is just as loud as a centerfire rifle. Don't believe me?
http://www.freehearingtest.com/hia_gunfirenoise.shtml
Dr.Mall Ninja
Member
Thats why I wear tactical pajamas.
jakemccoy
Member
Some folks here are so comfortable with guns that they forget, or don't understand, that many Americans are terrified of guns. If a prosecutor is hell bent on frying you, the odds are strongly against you if a prosecutor holds up your AK in court and calls it an "AK47" 
. The jury will mostly get that deer in headlights look and wonder what in the world you were thinking. They will not appreciate the wonderful differences between .223 and .308, or between FMJ and JHP. They will only see an AK47 sitting on the evidence table. Your credibility will be in jeopardy. If there is a question about your self-defense, the odds will be stacked against you if you use an AK. People on the jury can understand the 1911, but not the AK. Make your choice of weaponry with this reality in mind.
The AK may be better at bringing down fire and brimstone upon the intruder. However, for crying out loud, the 1911 is still quite effective if you practice a little bit.
. The jury will mostly get that deer in headlights look and wonder what in the world you were thinking. They will not appreciate the wonderful differences between .223 and .308, or between FMJ and JHP. They will only see an AK47 sitting on the evidence table. Your credibility will be in jeopardy. If there is a question about your self-defense, the odds will be stacked against you if you use an AK. People on the jury can understand the 1911, but not the AK. Make your choice of weaponry with this reality in mind.The AK may be better at bringing down fire and brimstone upon the intruder. However, for crying out loud, the 1911 is still quite effective if you practice a little bit.
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General Geoff
Member
I wouldn't bet on that. Also, any defense attorney worth his salt will completely dispel any attempt by the prosecutor to insinuate that your choice of firearm in any way reflects a desire to murder.
mljdeckard
Member
Yeah, the one that is going to really hurt your hearing, not just from volume, but the DIRECTION of the blast, is going to be a heavy revolver.
I don't WANT to shoot ANY gun indoors without hearing pro, but doing what you have to when there is an intruder in the house doesn't mean I plan on making a habit of it. I'll deal with some ringing and tinitus if I live. When I was .....young and stupid, I actually did some test firing of various guns indoors with some friends of mine, back when we all said that hearing protection is for wusses. We shot many guns, including full-power .44 and .357. Our ears rang for a while and it went away. I don't know if I have hearing damage from that event, but I do know that I am lucky, after experiences like that, being a tank crewman, and attending hundreds of rock concerts WITHOUT hearing pro, I still have hearing much better than average.
I would much rather shoot a shotgun, AK, AR, .45, etc than a heavy revolver. A lot of noise comes out from around the forcing cone, which is going to have much more direct impact on your ears than what comes out of the muzzle of a long gun a couple of feet further away and directed AWAY from your ears.
I don't WANT to shoot ANY gun indoors without hearing pro, but doing what you have to when there is an intruder in the house doesn't mean I plan on making a habit of it. I'll deal with some ringing and tinitus if I live. When I was .....young and stupid, I actually did some test firing of various guns indoors with some friends of mine, back when we all said that hearing protection is for wusses. We shot many guns, including full-power .44 and .357. Our ears rang for a while and it went away. I don't know if I have hearing damage from that event, but I do know that I am lucky, after experiences like that, being a tank crewman, and attending hundreds of rock concerts WITHOUT hearing pro, I still have hearing much better than average.
I would much rather shoot a shotgun, AK, AR, .45, etc than a heavy revolver. A lot of noise comes out from around the forcing cone, which is going to have much more direct impact on your ears than what comes out of the muzzle of a long gun a couple of feet further away and directed AWAY from your ears.
mljdeckard
Member
And jakemccoy, is my lawyer just going to sit there and scratch his head?
General Geoff
Member
mljdeckard, that is why I do in fact have electronic ear muffs sitting right on top of my home defense rifle. It's win-win: amplifies very quiet sounds, and blocks very loud sounds. Tactically advantageous in a home invasion scenario, to be sure.
jakemccoy
Member
Folks who think an AK sitting on the evidence table will be no different than a 1911 sitting on the evidence table, all do respect, but your reality meter needs to be calibrated. You'd be asking your lawyer to bench press 405 pounds, as opposed to bench pressing 135 pounds. Why not make it easier on your attorney to get you off, especially since a 1911 is going to protect you just fine?
General Geoff
Member
That's legal nonsense, jakemccoy. A 1911 is a firearm, it is deadly force. Just like an AK. They are the same class of force, legally. What matters in a trial where you claim self defense as justification to a homicide, is the perception of the defendant that his/her life is in imminent danger at the time of the shooting. That is all. And any defense attorney would/should spell this out precisely to the jury.
You can't know that. If a half a dozen punks break into your home, an AK may very well save your bacon, where a 1911 would leave you sorely wanting for more firepower.
You can't know that. If a half a dozen punks break into your home, an AK may very well save your bacon, where a 1911 would leave you sorely wanting for more firepower.
mljdeckard
Member
It's my job to survive. It's my lawyer's job to not let the prosecution misrepresent my equipment. (I have already spoken to my lawyer about this.) He and I both agree, most of the job is making sure the case doesn't get to a jury in the first place. My odds on this are much better in a city where the courthouse is two blocks from the John Moses Browning Museum, than in Northern California. (And yes, I have lived both places.)
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