1911, Rock Island vs Custom (Kimber) break in theory.

[itsreese]

So I have read on this and other forums that custom 1911's, such as Kimber, Wilson and some Springfields have a "break in" period of 200-500 rounds, before they stop haing feed jams (3 point jams) and on the other hand I have read of people with a $300 Rock Island Armory, shooting anything out of the box, 2500 rounds without a hitch.

Up until a week ago I was a RIA owner (GI 1911) that has put 400 rounds through her without a hiccup, so i will state my theory and then what led me to this theory.

The Custom series pistols USUALLY have a stainless steel barrel. This causes metal to metal friction on parts (barrel to bushing most prevalent) that as the slide rides forward it catches the barrel a hair early pulling it into battery separating the barrel 1/8" or so from the feed ramp pushing the round high where it collides with the top of the chamber. JAM. As the parts heat and rub, a polish occurs whereas there is less friction and reliability increases.

Now, on the RIA pistols, as mine did, come with a black coating on their pistols. This appears to be a duracoat or parkerizing, which are both a lubricative coating as well as helps with the authentic GI look, as most were not stainless simply put if you are in a combat zone anything that reflects can net you that early lottery ticket home. Now this would create less friction out of the box as it helps the barrel glide through the bushing. Now these coats wear, none is permanent, and mine was starting to show patches of stainless through the coating. The benefit is that as the coating wears the SS is gradually polished at the same timeso there is never a hitch. Either that or the barrel will go through a break in like a custom around 3000 rounds, as which point most people will either consider a rebuilt, or discarding the pistol to someone else, as the figure they got their $350 out of it.

Now here is where I came up with this. I have a RIA with 400rds and not a glitch in it. Recently i caught the 1911 bug and bought some parts to be here friday Tuesday night I began my adventure with the intent to polish my barrel to the stainless and give it a purty look. I used a whet stone rotary toolwhich removed the coating without taking too much metal off. She looked good but when I finished I had a collision when i "walked" the slife forward about 1/2" from battery. If i ran the slide forward it would catch. Ammo would cause a 3 point jam occasionally, and even when it went into battery I could see the flat spots on the copper flattened where it collided before it seated into battery. After some trouble shooting, thinking I polished too much off my barrel lugs, thinking I had long linked it, and treating it as a 3 point jam, after talking to a fellow 1911 guy here I got to thinking about the "break in" of other SS barreled 1911's. I went to Home Depot and got some Jewlers Paste (Jewlers Rouge) and a dremel buffing wheel. I have her some love, using the buffer to rough it up enough to take out the majority of the imperfections in manufacturing, and then polished it with the compound. I also ran the buffer inside the bushing too by the way. The first thing I noticed, after washing the barrel with winchester gun wash which removes EVERYTHING by the way and it awesome jsut know it leaves absolutely ZERO lubrication behind, is how smooth the barrel was without any gun oil. Walked the barrel forward and I couldnt get it to hitch. I asked my wife to walk it just to see if it was me and she got it to do it once out of about 20 walks. It will still collide if i point the barrel down or upside down, but after breaking the 1911 apart and learning about how it works from this, I think that has to do with gravity and the way the 1911 is made. The barrel is loose in the slide so when pointing it down there is nothing to hold the barrel back preparing it for a round from the mag so it gets pulled up as it rolls on the link. Go back horizontal and it falls back ready to grab a round.

So it seems that by taking the barrel to stainless I have put my 1911 in a place to require a break in similar to other 1911's and by polishing it i have helped speed up the process by smoothing the pieces together.

 

[MrAcheson]

Parkerizing is not a lubricative coating. In fact it makes the surface rougher which should increase friction compared to a polished barrel. My RIA came with a stainless barrel that I have since slicked up with moly grease.

The real issue is tolerances. My RIA locks up securely, but there is definitely more play at the barrel bushing that I would like. I've replaced the bushing with tighter aftermarket unit, but we'll see how that changes operation. I think you'll find that a Kimber will be much tighter from the factory than the RIA. That's why they want you to give it time to wear in.

 

[JTQ]

itsreese, I think you're giving some bad advice in this thread and another thread where you indicated 1911 parts interchangeability is the same as AR15 parts interchangeability.

Most (possibly all) Kimber barrels are not stainless, they are carbon steel and are simply "unblued".

You took a perfectly operating RIA 1911 and after your completely unnecessary home gunsmithing created a pistol that routinely jams.

You have some "upgraded" parts on order due in on Friday, which when they arrive you will have a better idea on what parts are actually "drop-in" parts on the 1911. I've seen posts were knowledgeable 1911 people have indicated there are only about 5 drop-in parts on a 1911, most of those are springs.

Good luck in your adventures, but I'll get my 1911 advice elsewhere.

 

[itsreese]

a tighter (custom) barrel will have more friction at first though, giving the symptoms i had, similar to a 3 point jam. And the barrel may not have been parkerized, it may have been a duracoat or knock off, which is claimed to have lubricative properties. And if the barrel was parkerized it may not have inherent lubricating properties, it does absorb and hold oils which could lessen friction over an unpolished barrel.

and i dont know how smooth or polished a stainless barrel is, it was just a theory. what i do know, is when i had a black barrel with whatever coating was on it, i never once had an issue. after i took the black off, and had a bare surface i was getting hangs. i put sharpie on my lugs thinking i had a burr getting hung up and noticed that the entire top of my barrel lugs was getting sharpie taken off, so on a hunch i put a ring of sharpie on the barrel and sure enough it was geting rubbed raw on the bottom of the barrel. some jewlers polish and a few hours later i had significanly fewer hang ups. it would also stand to reason that a tighter barrel/bushing like they put in a custom/match 1911 woudl have more friction out of the box until the parts rub together enough to "mate".

 

[itsreese]

@JTQ in reference to 1911 parts, i discussed that materials may differ. i have seen kimbers in aluminum as well. what i stated was similar to an AR, there is a mil spec sandard. aside from a material, a mil spec full size 1911 will have the same dimentions. and with an AR not everything is "drop-in" either, some parts require fitting, similar to a 1911.

and im not encouraging anyone to do home gunmithing, i understand my ventures, enjoy it and accept the risk of ruining a 1911 in the process of trial and error. i was not trying to give gunsmithing advice on either post. simply a theory i had on why some 1911's require a break in after my venture. and in the other post, i was trying to simplity the 1911. i stand by my statement i made comparing the AR to the 1911, many parts are interchangeable and the price paid on a higher end pistol is material, parts, and labor. 2 of which can be done at a later time by a "qualified gunsmith". if you want a carbon 1911, you can not buy a colt govt model and upgrade it to that. which is why i advised to start with the frame and go from there.

 

[harmon rabb]

Strange how Kimbers supposedly require a break in period before the function properly, yet the much tighter semi-customs like the Baer's don't? Interesting.

I have a RIA that locks up like a bank vault, so I wouldn't say that RIA's have loose tolerances. At least, mine doesn't.

 

[JTQ]

itsreese wrote,
a mil spec full size 1911 will have the same dimentions

This is not true.

The 1911 is not a Glock or AR. You may or may not find out on Friday when your parts arrive, depending on what you ordered, but as your adventure continues, you will understand eventually.

It is not a material issue, the dimensions of just about every 1911, even on the same size frame, differ from manufacturer to manufacturer. What fits in one may not fit in another. Heck, just do a search on the 'net about something as simple as 1911 magazines. I'm a 1911 user, I don't have a Glock or an AR. I really like the 1911, but I understand most replacement parts will require some fitting to work, if not actually requiring somebody with gunsmithing skills and tools to get to work.

Good luck.

 

[itsreese]

i am sorry but i fail to see how if a receiver is MIL SPEC, its dimentions will be so out of whack that nothing will fit. i accept that there are different methods of making a receiver, and a copy of a copy of a copy may require some fitting. my comparison was mil spec to mil spec. a "standard". i am not comparing a double stack or double action 1911 to an AR platform. those are still 1911's but not a mil spec.

 

[itsreese]

and to all, pease understand i am not bashing custom 1911's and boosting a armscor steel frame $400 1911. i was just trying to share why, after trial and error, i thought a custom 1911 might require a break in period. a Les Baer could have a better or different polish on the barrel, and some lower end 1911's might not. I thing that those custom 1911's are gorgeous and shoot like a dream, im not trying to compare the

just wanted to share a theory, and as a theory it could (and probably is) wrong, and i am ok with that. i dont want anyone to misunderstand the OP

 

[cobblestone]

My ria has a stainless barrel and has not had a problem. I thought everyone knew 1911's like kimbers, sa, colts may have a few hiccups based on their tighter tolerances than some of the looser ones. Not a bad thing, just something that happens by tightening up the design of a 1911. Id say your ria isnt feeding properlly because you decided to create a proplem where one didnt exist.

 

[18DAI]

Kimber invented the "break in period" to make up for their shoddy QA/QC.

My Llama 45 was more reliable than my Kimbers. TJ

 

[itsreese]

@ cobble, my RIA is feeding properly now, but yes, it was because i created a problem where one didnt exist, no arguement there

 

[Olympus]

i am sorry but i fail to see how if a receiver is MIL SPEC, its dimentions will be so out of whack that nothing will fit.

May not be a problem on your end. It may be that the parts and pieces that you ordered aren't "mil spec".

 

[alde]

I have had a Kimber Custom II for 3 years and have put well over 2K rounds through it and it has been 100% from day one. The only thing that changed after the first few hundred rounds was it became more accurate. I think the stories if Kimbers having feeding problems for the first few hundred rounds are of only a small percentage of guns. There are several people at my gun club that have Kimbers and they never complain about them and I have never seen them have problems.

A rattle trap is not going to be accurate. The military 1911's were not accurate but they were more interested if function under extreme conditions. My Kimber is probably not going to have to be depended on after being droped in a mud puddle. I would trust it with my life though.

 

[waterhouse]

I don't think your theory is correct. I've had too many 1911s with stainless barrels, both very expensive and relatively inexpensive, that functioned perfectly to believe that the stainless finish on the barrel would cause a problem.

Tuesday night I began my adventure with the intent to polish my barrel to the stainless and give it a purty look. I used a whet stone rotary tool which removed the coating without taking too much metal off.

How do you define "too much metal"? It is possible that it was not the finish, but that you changed the geometry of something enough to cause problems. You were then possibly able to smooth the issue out, but I don't thing the barrel finish really came into play.

i am sorry but i fail to see how if a receiver is MIL SPEC, its dimentions will be so out of whack that nothing will fit

Something will fit it, but the part that you picked, even if "mil spec", may not. Due to tolerance stack, many 1911s are put together using a part from a bin that happens to fit. From an old post by 1911Tuner:

Yep...All of'em...Colt too...are assembled using select fit, drop-in
parts. If one part or group isn't in-spec or doesn't function correctly, another part tried until one is found that does. Then there's the bin that holds the oversized/undersized parts for those times that tolerances
can't be brougght into spec with the standard parts. The quality of the
finished gun depends on the dedication and determination of the assembler to get it right

So, even if your gun is built to the original blueprints, and even if the part you order is built to the original blueprints (those can be big IFs), the part your ordered may require fitting. If you had a bin with 30 of the same parts, you could probably find several that fit, but there is no guarantee that the single part you ordered will drop in. A good deal of the time parts will require fitting.

 

[itsreese]

to everyone, thanks for your input. I dont own a custom 1911, so i am not trying to judge them, only going off what i have heard about break-ins and no military pistol is going to be match grade. GI pistols are a last ditch "tool", rifles are issued for accuracy, and FYI sidearms are normally issued to rear echelon and NCO's up, and security forces. At the time of WWII a boot infantryman wasnt issued a sidearm, they got one as a war prize or advanced into it.

 

[SoulLessGinger]

I built both the upper and lower receivers on my AR. Not one single part required fitting of any kind. High end custom triggers are about the only thing I can think of on an AR that require fitting.

Some aftermarket barrels for the Glock require fitting, some don't...the accurate ones DO.

Same with 1911. You can have dead nuts reliability with a 1911, but your accuracy will usually suffer.

Personally, I would leave the dremel in the drawer. The gun will fit itself to an extent as it wears in the parts. But if you want to do some experimenting with an inexpensive RIA, more power to ya. You're sure to learn a good deal about your gun in the process.

Most of all relax, this is supposed to be fun.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So I have read on this and other forums that custom 1911's, such as Kimber, Wilson and some Springfields have a "break in" period of 200-500 rounds, before they stop haing feed jams (3 point jams) and on the other hand I have read of people with a $300 Rock Island Armory, shooting anything out of the box, 2500 rounds without a hitch.

Up until a week ago I was a RIA owner (GI 1911) that has put 400 rounds through her without a hiccup, so i will state my theory and then what led me to this theory.

The Custom series pistols USUALLY have a stainless steel barrel. This causes metal to metal friction on parts (barrel to bushing most prevalent) that as the slide rides forward it catches the barrel a hair early pulling it into battery separating the barrel 1/8" or so from the feed ramp pushing the round high where it collides with the top of the chamber. JAM. As the parts heat and rub, a polish occurs whereas there is less friction and reliability increases.

No. Has nothing to do with a stainless barrel. Custom guns usually have much tighter tolerances because of the extensive hand fitting. For example, on most Les Baer guns that I've used, you must use the barrel bushing wrench to disassemble the gun - the fit is just too tight to turn it manually. In fact, with one new Les Baer that I tried, I could barely get the slide open, it was that tight (I was hoping no one was watching me struggle with it as I expected to hear, "What's wrong weakling?").

The idea with the break-in period is that you initially clean the gun when you get it, lube it properly, and then shoot it for 200-500 rounds without cleaning. This has the affect of lapping the parts as the dirt that builds up around things is held in suspension by the lubricant and forms a very fine lapping compound that polishes the parts to a matched fit. Most people add additional lubricant during the break-in period to keep the "crud" in suspension and alleviate jamming problems.

In the past 30 years, I've had 3 stainless .45's and two carbon steel, blued 45's. None of the guns have ever had feed or extraction problems, but I make sure they're setup correctly (extractor / ejector / barrel fit) and I keep them lubed properly. With the two latest stainless guns, both have had close to 2,000 rounds through them in the past three months, and have never had any type of feed or ejection problems - they've both worked flawlessly out of the box after cleaning, checking ejector, extractor, etc., and lubing.

Both guns were cleaned, lubed heavily, and shot 500 rounds without cleaning. The guns were then thoroughly cleaned (including removing the extractor and firing pin), lubed and have worked without a hiccup for the remaining 1,500 rounds. They get cleaned between 200-500 rounds depending on range time. Firing pin and extractor get pulled at 1,000 rounds and cleaned and lubed.

Your RIA is a fine gun - your theory just doesn't hold up to facts.

 

[itsreese]

ginger,
thanks for the support. the dremel was used with a honing stone which was barely abrasive, but lesson learned. last night when i used it was with a cotton tip and polish only. lesson learned +1 experience. the whole point to my process is to learn on my RIA, bought for $350 out the door. i would like to build a custom 1911 ground up and i plan to do it the same way i built my ar, by buying one and replacing parts on it until i am comfortable building one from scratch. consider it comsumable from the start, in case it becomes a paperweight.

 

[Ronsch]

I cannot answer to the whole "break in period" but here is my 1911 experiences....

When I was young (17 1/2) I went joined the NG and went through Basic Training. In 1982, the 1911 was still issued. When I qualified, the pistol was an (read very) old Remington 1911. WWII issue, IIRC. It fired without a hitch every time the trigger was squeezed. It rattled when shook from side to side, but it functioned.

The NG unit I returned to had WWII and Korea retread 1911s. As an A-gunner, I got to qualify with those. Same thing, it went bang, and rattled like a baby's rattle when shook. But, they functioned.

I left the 1911 alone for years, as I hated the barrel bushing setup. I bought Browning HPs for the most part, as I think that is what JM Browning ultimately intended for the 1911 to be (except in .45 ACP.) What always had turned me off in the 1980s and 1990s was the amount of custom work 1911 owners seemed to put into their guns. Everything I saaw (personally) or read, the 1911 owner would go spend several hundred dollars on a 1911, then have a gunsmith polish the ramp and throat, widen the ejection port, and add the beavertail grip. While I know all of that increases reliability and safety, I could never figure out why someone would not simply want a reliable gun right out of the box. So, I stuck with Sigs and Berettas.

Recently, I got the 1911 bug again, and bought 3 RIAs. 2 in the GI configuration, and 1 in the compact. All three are great and have had 0 malfunctions. I am up to about 500 rounds per gun, and I have had nothing but good luck. Considering, all together, with spare mags that I bought, I have $1300.00 invested in the 3, I think I am getting my money's worth.

YMMV...But the RIA are great guns for the money, IMHO.

 

[JTQ]

itsreese,

I'm sorry I have angered you. It was not my intention. The point of the PM is to give you some information without making it look like I'm trying to embarrass you, which I'm not.

My private recommendation about other sites to review is to let you know about them, since they have the most 1911 information. Kind of like privately suggesting to fellow workers on the Chevy assembly line that a Honda may be a better choice for their needs. No need for the other Chevy workers to know I'm recommending another brand.

My entry to this thread is because you have suggested to others that polishing a barrel on a 1911 is a good way to reduce a break-in period. I believe this to be bad advice. You have taken a working 1911 and made it a non-working 1911 through your actions. My point is that you have given information, that others may follow, that would like-wise make their pistols function less reliably.

"Lurking" is getting on a site and reading posts and learning before posting yourself. When I find a new site, I spend quite a bit of time "lurking" before becoming a member or posting. This allows me to learn some of the sites ground rules, find out who the subject experts are, and what kind of information is available.

I am certainly not the most knowledgeable person on this site. However, I have owned a 1911 for over 20 years. While certainly no expert, I am familiar with the pistol and done some reading about it.

While I'm not a Glock or AR owner, you can read posts from the Glock or AR owners on this site that buy new barrels, etc. and simply install them in their firearms. They drop in.

Spend some time reviewing posts on dedicated 1911 internet sites or from 1911 owners on this site, and you will find nobody buys an after market barrel and drops it right in. There are simply too many difference between the different manufactures, both builders, and parts suppliers for that to work. You probably couldn't buy a new Colt barrel for a Colt pistol and expect it to fit without a gunsmith working on it.

The 1911 is not an "assemblers" pistol as I also mentioned in my PM. The Glock is. You can buy just about anything for a Glock and put it right in. Ask the guys on this site. You can get a box of G17 parts and put together as many working G17's as there are parts for in the box. You can turn a G22 from a .40 S&W to a 9 MM or .357 Sig shooter just by swapping barrels (mags on a 9mm). No gunsmith needed. You cant do that with a 1911.

It doesn't make a 1911 bad, just different from a Glock or AR. Do I need to own a Glock or AR to know that I can just drop a part in? It would help, but I can read on this site from the experienced members that have done so to understand that for the most part it does work. Even if I didn't own a 1911 I could read up on them and find others experiences with the pistol. The overwhelming reports from those individuals is that you can't simply drop-in parts into a 1911 and make it work.

My intentions were to give you the best information possible without publicly making it look like I was picking on the "new guy". I'm sorry it didn't work out that way.

I will stand by my previous posts and the PM I sent. Parts don't just "drop-in" to a 1911, it is not like an AR. Just about anything beyond springs will usually require some fitting. The best places to find information about the 1911 (that I've found) is at M1911.org or at 1911Forum.com.

Best of luck with your 1911 endeavors. The folks on all of these sites are good folks and are willing to offer their help.

 

[kazzxtrismus]

let me start with the fact that i have taken courses (mechanical engineering in college) and have great experience with what i am about to say.... but am no university professor on metrology in machining.

there are different types of "FIT",
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineering_tolerance
this link is a basic start..

the fit can be tighter or looser dependent on type and intended working of the item.. some things depending on material are fit very tightly with the expectation of wear... others not so tight but the total "run-out" of the parts tolerances can be closely watched to "skip" breaking in...

this doesn't mean 1 is better than the other... just the intended final outcome after breaking in will be ever so slightly different because of different schools of thought.

lets talk about a crank shaft in a motor.
final dimension of the crank's main bearing races WILL vary slightly... some a smaller diameter and some larger... but all within spec.
this is because the bit machining the part will cut a little harder/deeper generating different thermal expansion etc...bla bla bla

variables will change the final product by a couple thousandths or tenthou of an inch as making every part EXACTLY EXACTLY the same is ridiculously expensive.

you can expect in a manufacturing environment to get a "big" peg for a "small" hole... the peg will go in the hole as both are to spec.
some will fit tighter than others.

its your tolerances and expected fit type that determine how tight (force fit or close-ness).. some things fit so they allow for oil to act as a bearing.. some things fit using the bearing as a wear part...

some things are a hot dog down a hallway on purpose...

some people prescribe to the idea that things should wear to match each other. some people prescribe to the idea they should be manufactured to match.

ill not re-start that argument.:banghead:

it is the intentions that count.. and the mechanical system (rotating part vs sliding part vs impacting part etc) mixed with the theory prescribed that determine what you produce..

it is pride in workmanship that determines the final outcome of the product by comparison to the perfect example.
aka is it a precision shooter or reliability king... and how well it meets that purpose & sliding scale

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

The difference between a Glock and a 1911 is that a Glock is designed to be assembled while some parts on a 1911 must be fitted. This is because in the time period the 1911 was designed, labor was relatively inexpensive compared to manufacturing parts. So, the design of the 1911 is based on hand fitting and adjusting many of the parts rather than taking any part and interchanging with no fitting required.

That's the beauty of both designs - the Glock requires little if any fitting and parts are easily swapped. The 1911 requires hand fitting on many parts, but the final result can be a very accurate pistol with a superior trigger.

 

[BushyGuy]

i had problems with my RIA when i first got it NIB , abt 300 rounds it stopped FTRB, now i can shoot JHP 's out of it!

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

...by buying one and replacing parts on it until i am comfortable building one from scratch.

Here are some things you may want to consider. I'm having a custom gun built, and the builder requested a "raw" receiver and slide (no manufacturer fitting) - AND requested the receiver be in .38 / 9mm caliber rather than .45 as he prefers to throat the receiver himself after fitting the slide, and barrel.

Most "drop in" barrels won't drop in - they require some hand fitting. So, you can go from totally fitting every part, to partial fitting, to nearly none, but you're going to need to choose your parts very carefully unless you have access to machine tools or you're very good with hand tools.