1911 'Safety Cut'

[DT Guy]

I've seen at least one custom smith offering a 'safety cut' option for 1911's that will allow the slide to cycle with the safety engaged.

While I get along fine with a stock 1911, this seems intriguing; I've had 1911 variants (Star's, for instance) that operate this way, and I see some value in it. Being able to have the safety engaged when loading the chamber, for instance, seems worthwhile.

That said, I haven't seen any description of how this modification is done, or what other impact the modification will have on the gun.

Anyone got experience or photos to share?

Thanks,

Larry

 

[Jim Watson]

There is a picture of a Novak Next with that modification at:
http://www.novaksights.com/assets/images/guns/photogallery1911/pages/novaknextLw_jpg.htm

You can see the heavy bevel on the slide running forward from the thumb safety notch. I would assume that the safety is beveled to match on the back side. That would let you run the slide back with the safety lever up. I don't know if internal modifications are required.

 

[1911Tuner]

Sounds to me like another answer in search of a question, though it may be a viable option for states that require the feature at some future time.

Just observe muzzle discipline and be mindful of your finger's proximity with the trigger whenever loading and unloading, and you'll be fine.

 

[GURU1911]

I totally agree with mr. 1911tuner: Follow col. Jeff cooper's basic 4 gun handling rules & everything will be ok. John moses browning got this design right the first time. Any serious deviations from this basic design are not needed, required, or advised. Leave your pistol as is & don't worry about re-designing the function of the thumb safety which has withstood almost 100 years of stellar service protecting lives.

 

[rcmodel]

I agree it seems worthwhile to leave it alone.
The 1911 safety was designed to lock the slide so the slide can't be knocked out of battery when holstering, etc.

Remote chance as it is, I'd much rather load it with the safety off, then pull it out of a holster and get a click instead of a bang because the slide was out of battery slightly.

rc

 

[bigfatdave]

It is possible to chamber a round without engaging the grip interlock, if it worries anyone that much.

 

[DT Guy]

All that considered, I can see value in being able to drop the slide with the safety on.

I've been shooting 1911's for going on 30 years (holy cow, am I old...) and while I'm comfortable with its manual of arms, I'm not adverse to progress. And I could see this, assuming it doesn't compromise something else, as progress.

Just wondering if anyone's handled one, or better still, shot one-

Larry

 

[DeepSouth]

Looks like that might allow grit and such to get in places you don't want it, just judging from the pic. Answer in search of a question seems like a pretty good description to me.

It is possible to chamber a round without engaging the grip interlock, if it worries anyone that much.

Interestingly enough, the gun in the pic doesn't appear to have a grip safety. I wouldn't think the mod to the slide would have anything to do with it though.

 

[KodiakBeer]

There is a picture of a Novak Next with that modification at:

Wow! I don't think I want a picture window in my slide!

 

[bigfatdave]

Interestingly enough, the gun in the pic doesn't appear to have a grip safety.

That is interesting, in a way that would make me slowly back away and never consider a gun from that source again.
The grip safety is a main feature of the platform, and one of the reasons I'm happy to carry a century-old design, pinning in the grip safety or nerfing the manual safety might make a nice range toy, but for carry/duty? I'll pass.

Wow! I don't think I want a picture window in my slide!

I'm not liking the concept, but the picture posted above looks like the slide has a thinned/beveled side, I assume it matches up with a beveled safety, but I don't think it leaves an opening, it just removes the designed interference between the slide and safety lever.

 

[Red Cent]

Novak is a recognized and sought after builder of pistols for those that regularly go to dark places. A few of his customers may prefer the modification. 'Course he is noted for his famous sights and outstanding work on the HiPower. And he is located in W By God V.

NOVAK'S® "ANSWER®" One Piece Back Strap (option offered)

http://novaksights.com/photogallery/index.html

 

[GLOOB]

I assume there's an obvious reason you can't just mill away that part of the safety lever.

 

[Jim K]

There is no reason you can't mill or grind down the safety lever, but you would probably want to build up the thumbpiece to the rear since part of it will be cut away also.

In spite of the "Holy JMB" nonsense and the "do things the way they have always been done" folks, there is nothing wrong with the idea. In fact, one of the major and much praised improvements in military rifles was the design of another Saint John, Garand, whose design allowed the rifle to be loaded with the safety on, thus preventing some accidental discharges on the range. (That change, incidentally, resulted in the military range command "Load and Lock" being changed to "Lock and Load". And you always wondered, didn't you?)

Jim

 

[DT Guy]

My question centers, I suppose, on whether there's a downside to the mod. If reliability isn't compromised, it simply gives you one more option for how you handle the pistol.

As far as the gun being locked into battery, I'm fairly certain a holster so tight as to push it OUT of battery would certainly be tight enough to pull it IN to battery on the draw. Failing that, the recoil spring should manage it, faster than you could notice.

As I mentioned, there are 1911-ish pistols out there--notably some Stars--that operate that way, and I consider it a potential improvement.


Larry

 

[1911Tuner]

Being a long-time 1911 user/shooter/carrier, I don't see a real need for it. I learned many eons ago to keep my finger off the trigger until I'm prepared for the gun to fire. I suppose that the modification has merit for some, if for no other reason that it makes them feel better. I've just never adhered to the notion that a mechanical safety device is a substitute for good gun handling practices.

But...Some do seem to like the idea and even prefer it...so in that light, it can probably be done without milling away a portion of the slide or having to weld up the rear of the thumb pad.

Many years ago, Jeff Cooper taught his students to shoot with the thumb on top of the safety in order to prevent indadvertently engaging it during recoil. Although I've never had that to happen, I suppose that some people have, or he wouldn't have brought attention to it. Being that thumb-on-top can be a bit awkward for some, a redesigned safety appeared with the pad positioned low on the part, neatly solving the problem...at least for those who planned to attend Gunsite, and understood that the Colonel wouldn't accept or tolerate any deviations. The low pad would likely allow removing the upper portion of the safety which locks the slide forward, and give the owner the option without permanently altering the slide. I believe that Brownells carries the low pad safety for those who have an interest.

The only forseeable problem would be in figuring out how to prevent overtravel in the safe position.
I may order one at some point and put it to the test. If I do, I'll report back.

Just a suggestion...

 

[a5werkes]

Charlie Kelsey founded the Devel Corporation and was an innovator in creating compact Colt M1911's but was best known for his combat conversions of the Smith & Wesson M39 and the higher capacity M59.

A 1911 with a thumb safety that remained engaged with the slide to the rear was popularized by him. His custom guns also used to have the then useless safety notch in the slide "filled in" by welding and finishing the slide.

His unceremonious demise of being found dead not far from STI headquarters in 2003 remains a mystery with lots of mysterious innuendos as to possible competitor corporate hit-men somehow responsible for his death. IF you would like to learn about a little niche in 1911 history, its a good read if you Google the name and follow the story.

I have modified this Officer model with an ambidextrous Wilson safety ala Kelsey's idea. It works nicely. Just a little filing down of the inside surface of the left side safety to clear the notch is all that it takes. I obviously didn't have my slide notch welded over, but the upside is it allows reversion to the original style without permanently altering the slide.

As for weapon out of battery, it is a good practice to support the rear of any slide, hammerless or not, while re-holstering, to avoid any semi-auto from being dislodged from battery.

 

[bigfatdave]

1911Tuner, wouldn't a low-mounted safety lever increase the incidents of accidental engaging during recoil?
Sounds like a self-fufilling prophecy to me.

 

[DT Guy]

The Gunsite safety is specifically designed for people who have shorter fingers, and allows them to ride the safety as the Colonel suggested. So you're still holding it down.

I would only mention that the Gunsite safety has been made by various vendors, and I've seen some that were not of the highest quality.


Larry

 

[Jim K]

Hi, Tuner,

You wrote:

"The only forseeable problem would be in figuring out how to prevent overtravel in the safe position."

But the slide doesn't stop the safety from going up further, the cut in the frame does. The safety will (should) go up the same amount even if the slide is not on. Unless the clone makers have messed that up too.

Jim

 

[1911Tuner]

The safety will (should) go up the same amount even if the slide is not on. Unless the clone makers have messed that up too

It seems that they have, Jim. Even my older 91A1 (Billboard) Colts and the NRM 0991 will let the safeties move a bit further without the slides. My older (60s vintage) Colts and none of my USGI pistols do that. I haven't investigated it to determine whether it's the frames or the safeties themselves that are out of spec.

 

[rskent]

This would let you do a press check with the safety on. Seems like a good idea to me.
What am I missing?
Steve

 

[DT Guy]

Mostly just a (fully justified) hesitancy to change JMB's design, I think.

On the other hand, many folks wouldn't like a 1911 without a lowered ejection port, better sights, ambi safeties, checkering...all of which are variations from the original design-and which were dismissed by many when introduced as 'unnecessary', it should be pointed out.

Larry

 

[1911Tuner]

This would let you do a press check with the safety on. Seems like a good idea to me. What am I missing?

Correctly done, the pinch check poses no danger to the index finger pressing on the recoil spring plug.

Grasp the gun in a normal grip. Reach up and place the thumb on the hammer, and overcock it slightly. You not only have control of the hammer, but the grip safety kicks out and blocks the trigger. Hook the other thumb in the trigger guard, being careful not to let it hit the trigger...and pinch away. As the slide moves back, let the thumb roll out of the way. Once the slide moves, the disconnect operates and pulling the trigger won't let the hammer fall even if it could get loose from your thumb.

It goes without saying that grip safeties with speed bumps may not engage...but you still have control of the hammer.

 

[1911Tuner]

Mostly just a (fully justified) hesitancy to change JMB's design, I think.

Maybe. Sometimes there are valid reasons for leaving (some) things alone. Remember what the gun was originally intended for.

Lowered ejection ports are most often done to prevent dinging up brass. Reloaders don't like ugly ammo, and I understand that. Dinged brass sometimes causes problems...but lowering the port also provides a bigger opening for debris to enter the works...which can get you killed when the gun is carried in adverse conditions. The gun was originally intended for a soldier to carry to war. Nobody was concerned with the condition of the brass after it left the port. The only concern was that it get out of the way.

Ski ramp rear sights are nice. They provide a finished, custom look, and provide a good sight picture...but they also negate the ability to operate the slide with one hand by snagging the sight on your belt or into the fabric of your pants. If you're in a fight for your life, with one hand or arm disabled, that can be important.

Upswept safeties are also good for preventing blistered hands, but they cost the shooter a solid, repeatable spot weld.

Ambi safeties do have their place, but they often fail at critical moments...especially if not properly installed.

Big, blocky sights are also nice for target work...but they do almost nothing to enhance shooting in extremely close range emergencies, where the gun is most likely going to be used...and they can snag on clothing and foul up the presentation...which can get you killed. When I carry a revolver concealed for purposes of self defense, I never carry one with adjustable sights for that very reason.

Most of these modifications came about as a result of game playing, and shooting prodigious volumes of ammunition...which is a good thing...but they also cause the gun to lose something of its utility as a fighting tool in the process. Like a crime scene...Everybody who breaches the tape brings something in with them, and when they leave, they take something out with them. No such thing as a free lunch.

So, the usefulness of a modification depends partly on what the gun is intended for, and under what conditions it will be carried. The right tool for the job.

 

[DT Guy]

Correctly done, the pinch check poses no danger to the index finger pressing on the recoil spring plug.

I agree. Having said that, would I prefer to do a press check that way (I use another, FWIW) with the safety 'on' or 'off'? I'd probably choose 'on', if that were an option.

The 1911 has much to commend it-it's my favorite pistol, by far-but it's not perfect (yet?) And while some incremental improvements can be detrimental to other uses, it would be hard to point at a good (10-8, Heinie) set of sights and not agree they're an improvement for most shooting, just as a crisp 4# trigger is almost always an improvement over a creepy 6-7# trigger. And hammer bite is just bad, a distraction at best and hindrance at worst.

The 'modern' 1911 is a better pistol, for my uses, than the original. And a gun with a 'safety cut' might be even better, if (a very big 'if', I'll admit) it doesn't require compromises elsewhere. That's what I'm trying to find out.

Looking at the area in question, I'm hard pressed to figure out how one would modify a safety to not lock the slide and still have it be robust enough for comfort. I'm trying to find a 'top-down' view of the mod to see more-

Larry