1911- still a war worthy?

Status
Not open for further replies.
A 1911 would have done anything an M9 ever did for me. Even the pistol qualification hasn't been rewritten since the days of the .45 ACP. You don't load more than 7 rounds in a magazine. I did appreciate having 20-rd capacity magazines since my M9 was the only weapon I carried during a lot of the time I spent around Afghans, but never needed to use them so ultimately 7 vs 20 wouldn't have mattered to me. Yup, a 1911 would have worked just fine.
 
Take it apart and think.

1) it's all steel - a gun that is going to get literally dragged across the beach, endure mud, and then be called on for use after the primary weapon was down needs to be extremely durable and reliable. Like it or not, polymer pistols do that, all steel won't. Nothing on a polymer frame can oxidize or rust, so reduces the maintenance load on the carrier.

2) It's a .45 - no longer a compatible NATO caliber. Adding a different caliber to the wartime logistics chain is another incremental load on the Army that does it. When you and your Allies all share the same calibers, there is a higher incidence of cross leveling ammo and getting enough to go around.

3) It's expensive to make - all steel/alloy guns require 100% machining, other than what small parts you can make casting or in MIM. Molding the polymer frame reduces the cost 25% or more - which we see when making a choice for a firearm retail. If the government needs to buy a firearm, why limit the contract when you can get 25% more guns for the same price? Why punish the taxpayer with a high cost firearm when a polymer framed one does the same job?

4) The 1911 is a .45 - which becomes a difficult proposition creating a double stack grip that can be handled by smaller soldiers. We may provoke catcalls about somebody serving needing to be in shape and capable of doing the job, the reality is that in modern times, the average woman is the same size as the pastime soldiers of the 1940s. If a modern female Marine would be better served by a smaller firearm in 9mm, her male counterpart of 75 years ago would too. (Which is entirely the point of the M16.)

5) Since the auto pistol as an issue gun is actually a badge of authority - then why accept the 1911 .45 as the premier example? Are there not others more deserving to signify that the bearer is one with authority? Why not a gold plated Beretta M9, or better yet, some other more exotic PDW? It's all the sidearm really is, Why not an HK MP7, or SIG MPX, or Magpul FMG-9? If you had a choice, would you want a SA pistol with 7 or 8 shot magazine, or a full auto submachine gun with 32 round mag?

It's not what you think would be cool for someone else to carry, what would YOU want dragging YOUR web gear across the beach?

Nobody chooses less capable tools when their life depends on them.

:evil: Now there's something to discuss, take a big deep breath and give it a moment before going into attack mode. And, BTW, I'm selling my Glock to buy a P938, so don't get to your drawers into a twist.
 
I have a better idea. Allow battalion and company level commanders to let their soldiers carry what they want within reasonable guidelines. You buy it, you feed it, you maintain it. The DOD has very little interest in sidearms at all. No war has ever been won or lost based on the choice of sidearm.

Not only would I carry my Kimber to war tomorrow if I were allowed, I also have a Para Ordnance SF-45A, which answers the capacity question, for those who were concerned about it. (I wasn't.)
 
But....the best defensive gun is the one you shoot and handle best. For MANY of us, it is a 1911. Large agencies don't see it this way. They look for the gun they can issue and train large numbers of diverse people with, in the most cost-effective way. This does not mean it's a great choice for anyone, it's saying 'this will work, so live with it' to everyone.

If you ever actually NEED a sidearm in war, how cost-effective it was to the DOD will mean little to YOU in that moment. It means you are in the worst kind of trouble, and you will never need your sidearm more. It doesn't matter to the DOD, it matters to the individual.
 
I don't think the 1911 is the best choice out there, nor would I choose a Beretta. Been there and toted the M9 in a few tours, and I'd much rather have any of my Glocks! I'd also prefer a M&P or even an XD, although not a fan of the grip safety.

Been in several pistol classes and saw too many 1911's fail hard while the Tupperware kept launching lead to want a 1911 for anything other than fun shooting at the range.

Sorry if I offend...no harm intended.
 
I have to agree with those who believe the M1911 is still a viable option (perhaps as it is now with certain small units), but that there are better choices out there today in terms of a standard sidearm.
 
Oh, and here's a 3lb gun 8 shot pistol.
Click to expand...

1911 pistol, three loaded magazines, web belt with holster and pouch for the two spare magazines is slightly over 5 pounds (the intended weight of the 1938 program that ultimately resulted in the M1 carbine: "light rifle" + sling + 20 rounds = 5 pounds).
 
Last edited:
kwguy said:
Sure, why not? It's just at a disadvantage in terms of firepower when compared to more 'late model' designs, and it's less forgiving of dirt / grime etc. But if maintained reasonably well, within those limitations, it'll do.
Click to expand...

Less forgiving? Only because they're made so damn tight today. If you built it a little looser like it originally was, you can get it plenty dirty.

Tom
 
I'm no scientist, not a ballistics expert, and not a combat veteran.

I look at things simply sometimes. Energy, velocity, all that stuff aside - I simply think that, the bigger hole you make in something. the harder it's going to be to fix it.

With that thinking. I would carry the largest caliber I can. 1911 fits that bill rather well. And with regards to ammo capacity, there are a few makers out there that have double stack varieties which seem to work rather well.

Then again, Sgt York didn't seem to be bothered by 7 rounds either.

I've never carried a combat load, and never had to use a handgun with people coming at me to kill me either so who knows.
 
But....the best defensive gun is the one you shoot and handle best. For MANY of us, it is a 1911. Large agencies don't see it this way. They look for the gun they can issue and train large numbers of diverse people with, in the most cost-effective way. This does not mean it's a great choice for anyone, it's saying 'this will work, so live with it' to everyone.

If you ever actually NEED a sidearm in war, how cost-effective it was to the DOD will mean little to YOU in that moment. It means you are in the worst kind of trouble, and you will never need your sidearm more. It doesn't matter to the DOD, it matters to the individual.
Click to expand...

These are good valid points - up to a point. If the situation is that bad, then the incremental difference of one vs the other won't likely tip the scales. There's no way to document or verify it.

As for needing a sidearm in war, they are usually never the primary weapon anyway. A Combat Rifle is for the average soldier, sailor, airman, or Marine who is under fire. That's why sidearms are a sideshow.

It still goes back to being the most appropriate compromise - which all weapons are. A polymer handgun is the preferred choice of most PD's for good reason. Affordability and durability are the two main factors, not whether you or I would shoot another few points better on the target range. Combat with a sidearm would be at close range, the operator just needs to keep it down to 2MOA and it's a hit. Most issue handguns can do that out to 50 yards. Accuracy beyond that is wasted money.

Let's not forget Browning moved on in his quest for the better combat handgun, and in doing so he recognized two important features we have now embraced world wide - double action, double stack. It's why the Hi Power became the defacto world standard and influenced all other combat pistol designs.

That doesn't mean the 1911 action wouldn't suit the CCW user, if anything, it's a better fit. Given the rule of 3's, three feet, three seconds, three shots, a 1911 SA in a concealable form has advantages over a chopped duty polymer gun. It's two different things, tho, and the incremental difference is what we focus on. In real life, either would do, and the number who carry both is considerable. There is no best, just better for that carrier.

If anything, for the Marines to move back to the 1911 is tacit admission the weapon has less role in open combat than we collectively think. It's being demoted to a PDW, something to carry in administrative areas or outside the wire on R&R where the rifle isn't allowed, but risk still exists. That recognizes the nature of terrorism - no front lines, no idea where the next attack could come from. Same reasons we carry concealed.
 
Let's not forget Browning moved on in his quest for the better combat handgun, and in doing so he recognized two important features we have now embraced world wide - double action, double stack. It's why the Hi Power became the defacto world standard and influenced all other combat pistol designs.
Click to expand...

BHP is SAO
 
1911

If you have to ask or are still answering negatively you don't understand the gun. A little study and practice is in order for you to realize the error of your ways.
 
Not only is the hi power DA. I think the idea that browning moved on in terms of trying to find what he personally thought was better is a stretch. The hi power was designed in response to a military contract that called for certain features and capabilities. I'd be very interested to see anything that substantiates the idea browning that the direction he was moving with the hi power was per se better.
 
Tirod,

In the words of ESPN's Chris Carter, "Come on, Man".

Tirod wrote,
Let's not forget Browning moved on in his quest for the better combat handgun, and in doing so he recognized two important features we have now embraced world wide - double action, double stack. It's why the Hi Power became the defacto world standard and influenced all other combat pistol designs.
Click to expand...
As other's have already mentioned, but I will repeat, so you know, the Hi-Power is a single action pistol.
 
LNK said:
Wow, attacking a gun and the Marine Corps in the same post! Real high road...

LNK
Click to expand...
I wasn't attacking the Corps. I wasn't attacking "the gun", per se. I was commenting on what I see as a rather silly macho-man finish (when good old Parkerization or Bruniton work fine) and grips which look like an aardvark's afterbirth. In truth, I imagine a lot of Marines would agree.
 
Not only is the hi power DA. I think the idea that browning moved on in terms of trying to find what he personally thought was better is a stretch. The hi power was designed in response to a military contract that called for certain features and capabilities. I'd be very interested to see anything that substantiates the idea browning that the direction he was moving with the hi power was per se better.
Click to expand...

Pretty much this. The Hi Power came about as the result of a French military trial for a new service pistol. Browning designed the gun according to what the French military wanted, not what he personally thought was best for a combat handgun.

Even then, the gun that resulted from that trial was not the same Hi Power that we know today. Browning's design lost, was shelved by FN, and Browning moved on to his Superposed shotgun. FN designer Dieudonne Saive ended up doing most of the final development work to create what we know as the Hi Power after JMB's death.
 
Yes.

There was one on my hip in 68.

There is one on my hip now.

God willing it will still be on my hip in 20 yrs, when I am 85
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

H
  • Locked
The Mythic 1911
2 3
Replies
73
Views
4K
Tango Sierra
T
D
  • Locked
Close-Quarter Battle: Handguns Still Rule
Replies
4
Views
1K
Spark
S
D
  • Locked
Close-Quarter Battle: Handguns Still Rule
2
Replies
32
Views
2K
CWL
C
Doug Bowser
  • Locked
My Father's use of a Colt's Model of 1911 in WW1
2
Replies
32
Views
2K
Doug Bowser
Doug Bowser
J
  • Locked
war for hearts and minds
Replies
14
Views
884
armedandsafe
armedandsafe
Back
Top