1911- still a war worthy?

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I've never been in the military, but I've been in my share of fights. If I go into another one, I want a 1911A1 with me.
I was in the military and would feel much more comfortable with a high cap poly auto like a glock,sig,S&W,etc

The 1911 is still war worthy in my humble opinion BUT not cost effective as the amount of work and quality to produce a reliable 1911 just isn't in any country's buget.For the cost of a combat worthy colt you can get 2 reliable out of the box poly auto's.Again,just my humble opinion.
 
I still think that the best option would be to allow soldiers to buy their own sidearms and be responsible for them, with bn and co commanders allowed to veto any ridiculous choices. Make it not the DOD's problem. You can add that to the list of reasons I will never be SECDEF.
 
I choose a 1911 for one my three bug-out guns. I have carried an Army issued M1911, M10, and M9 at different points in the years I was in. I decided on a 1911 cuz, well, I just dig them and I have full faith in my SR1911 to do what I want.

Were I head of TRADOC though, I would push for a 5-inch XD45 to be the new issue side-arm. Reasons are capacity, ease of use, durability, round effectiveness, cost, ease of maintenance, ease of serviceability. Sadly, being made in Croatia kinds stops that but that is what I would choose as a current arm for the Big Army.
 
My point is that there are quit a few on here who have never been in a theater of war and they are talking up their polymer side arms like they have some kind of a proven record, but they don't, and I doubt any of them ever will.

In particular someone in another thread said something about a particular polymer hand gun being a real battle gun. That got me thinking, how do you really know? I don't think they can, I think in they just think their gun is the coolest thing since sliced bread because they paid a $1000.00 for a plastic gun.

Some one dropping a gun in water, mud, and sand then shooting a few rounds does not really prove any thing in my mind.


I am not claiming to know for sure that the polymer guns are not going to hold up, but it is my experience that plastic does not wear like metal does. And until a actual fighting force employes one for any length of time how are we to really know that they will be better than what is currently used now.

I also by no means think that the 1911 is the supreme hand gun, I understand how government contracts work, the cheapest one to meat the needs wins the contract, makes one think about what is issued to our troops.

As far as every one being able to choose their own, I think that invites serious logistic problems, how do you keep parts to maintain all the fire arms. For as little as a hand gun is likely to be used, a standard issue is the only way to go.
 
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Short answer YES. 1911 as a go to war gun is a fine choice. Dont like it, and can carry something else, then do it. The Army is allowing POW (privately owned weapons) again. Subject to either company or battalion approval. I could carry what I wanted and did. My buddy who was part of 2nd Rangers EOD, attached to SOF carried a plain issue Colt 1911, and loved it. He was derided in his choice of "dinasaur" pistol! THAT STOPPED, after he logged a series of 1 shot kills at short range clearing buildings. Then he had to watch his pistol, as other guys wanted it.
 
Reading through some wonderful responses and arguments, I am beginning to wonder how much are simply sentimental.

No doubt 1911 is a great platform, but as a secondary weapon in my opinion. Now, if there were to be a situation where handgun was the only weapon you could take into a hostile situation as part of undercover operation, how many of you would still make an argument for 1911 over something with higher capacity?
 
Short answer YES. 1911 as a go to war gun is a fine choice. Dont like it, and can carry something else, then do it. The Army is allowing POW (privately owned weapons) again. Subject to either company or battalion approval. I could carry what I wanted and did. My buddy who was part of 2nd Rangers EOD, attached to SOF carried a plain issue Colt 1911, and loved it. He was derided in his choice of "dinasaur" pistol! THAT STOPPED, after he logged a series of 1 shot kills at short range clearing buildings. Then he had to watch his pistol, as other guys wanted it.
Good old reliable " Mr. Bumble Bee " !
 
My point is that there are quit a few on here who have never been in a theater of war and they are talking up their polymer side arms like they have some kind of a proven record, but they don't, and I doubt any of them ever will.

In particular someone in another thread said something about a particular polymer hand gun being a real battle gun. That got me thinking, how do you really know? I don't think they can, I think in they just think their gun is the coolest thing since sliced bread because they paid a $1000.00 for a plastic gun.

Some one dropping a gun in water, mud, and sand then shooting a few rounds does not really prove any thing in my mind.


I am not claiming to know for sure that the polymer guns are not going to hold up, but it is my experience that plastic does not wear like metal does. And until a actual fighting force employes one for any length of time how are we to really know that they will be better than what is currently used now.

I also by no means think that the 1911 is the supreme hand gun, I understand how government contracts work, the cheapest one to meat the needs wins the contract, makes one think about what is issued to our troops.

As far as every one being able to choose their own, I think that invites serious logistic problems, how do you keep parts to maintain all the fire arms. For as little as a hand gun is likely to be used, a standard issue is the only way to go.
It can be argued that everyday LEO use is just a rough as the use any typical, average, everyday troop would put theirs through. Also, think outside the US. France uses a polymer framed sidearm, I am sure there are many others.
 
Consider that our soldiers often times PREFER polymer gear over metal gear all the time. For example, Magpul PMAGS are considered to be vastly superior to standard metal GI mags. Also, I don't see any US soldiers turning in their polymer adjustable buttstocks. I've also read that many prefer the Magpul polymer MBUS sights because they resist wear better than metal back-up sights (less likely to get bent when dropped).
 
I don't have any military experience, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn. But I did do a head-to-head, torture test of a G17 and a Colt 1911, for 3,000 rounds, zero cleaning. By 3,000 rounds of factory ball ammo fired through each handgun, neither pistol had failed a single time. All I ever did was add a little oil every few hundred rounds to avoid damage to my handguns.

If for whatever the reason, I were allowed one, single handgun for life, it would be a 1911, and I'd just learn again to deal with the weight. I'm not "knocking" Glocks. I own several Glocks (G26, G19, G19C, G17, G20, G20C, and a couple of G21s). I really like my Glocks. But I shoot the 1911 more accurately than any other handgun, and what surviving a conflict requires is an accurate hit to stop an attack. My own vote would go to a Colt Series 70. Is it a viable military handgun? Ask a vet.

Geno
 
Reading through some wonderful responses and arguments, I am beginning to wonder how much are simply sentimental.

No doubt 1911 is a great platform, but as a secondary weapon in my opinion. Now, if there were to be a situation where handgun was the only weapon you could take into a hostile situation as part of undercover operation, how many of you would still make an argument for 1911 over something with higher capacity?
SOCOM, Delta, Marine Corps Expeditionary Unit, SF, USMC FAST, FBI HURT, LAPD SWAT, and others still prefer them.

So I can't see any reason to not like 'em.

I'm a Glock man (I'd prefer my Glock 31, .357 Sig, if a big firefight was coming and I could not get a rifle) but still a skilled man can use a 1911 very very well due to it's single action trigger and good ergonomics.

One can make a very precise shot with a 1911, and with suicide bombers that may be the only way to stop them. Power and precise placement.

Deaf
 
I wouldn't feel outgunned taking a 1911 to "war" as a side arm but I'm in the THERE ARE BETTER OPTIONS camp on this one that list could easily consist of good alternatives like the HK 45, FNX 45, Glock 21, M&P, XDM etc. I recently picked up an FNX 45 and would rather grab it than a 1911.
 
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My Marine Corps MOS dictated that I was issued a 1911A1. During my initial combat experience I realized by forceful example that it was not prudent to bring a pistol to a rifle fight supplemented with automatic weapons, recoilless rifles, mortars and other destructive devices. At some point during the first day I supplemented the pistol with a rifle. For the remainder of my tour the rifle was primary and the pistol secondary.
 
Trunk Monkey, I get what you're saying. I probably should have elaborated a bit; my contention would be that there's no way the pistol of the average patrol officer (who might scuff his pistol against the doorframe getting out of his Crown Vic or experience seat-belt rub on the exposed portion of his holstered pistol) suffers as much damage, wear or exposure to the elements and sweat that the sidearms of soldiers or Marines deployed to Irag or A'stan (who spend considerable time outside the wire) will see.

Personally, I'd have no issue with troops using polymer pistols, but we're talking about whether or not the 1911 is still a viable combat weapon ... and, as others have duly pointed out, the pistol is truly only a tool of last resort in almost every battlefield application.
 
As said and repeated, soldiers don't carry pistols in a combat zone. It's an officers weapon or one used in military police duties. When you research the real beginnings of the M4, an early intent was to issue it to drivers and sundry who would be handicapped with larger rifle but still needed more than a pistol could offer. Same reasoning behind the M2 carbine.

As for LEO's banging their weapons around, take it to the next degree: chasing suspects down allies, they bounce off dumpsters, scale fences, crawl on the ground, get into wrestling matches on concrete and asphalt, etc. It's not a donuts and cruiser lifestyle in reality.

The service pistol? Full flap holster worn in the majority by those who do not command in the trenches. And as said, when they try it, they quickly decide otherwise.

Again, if you are a Marine you are not issued a pistol unless you the rank of full colonel or above. Keep pointing out the exceptions - it's the elite small units who get the 1911.

Some one dropping a gun in water, mud, and sand then shooting a few rounds does not really prove any thing in my mind.
And yet, that is exactly the protocol the Glock survived to be chosen the Austrian Army's sidearm, and now the British Army.

They didn't bother to ask anyone, they decided it on it's own merits to their standards and conditions. Considering they didn't adopt the Hi Power until the late '60s, the Brits are as notoriously slow as we are sometimes.

What was the main reason the M16 was fielded? More bullets flying toward the enemy means more hits, even if it wasn't immediately directed at any specific target. Battle is dynamic, soldiers walk into the flight path of a bullet often enough, and the more hit, the less battle power a unit has.

Entirely why the French wanted more bullets - their research in trench warfare saw the need, they upped the mag capacity, they were responding to the dynamics of warfare. As nations saw the trend, they all added magazine capacity, and the additional trend of not needing high powered rounds complemented that trend in rifles. Pistols are already low powered short range weapons meant for close combat.

Armies get combat pistols, experienced shooters with limited targets working in close encounters don't necessarily need hi cap guns. Hence, the double stack double action guns go to the troops as general issue, the single stack single action guns are crossing over to become the mainstay of brief combat used by experts. Someone recently posted why there are so many new 1911's on the market - the civilian market is being driven by CCW - not battlefield combatives. While polymer combat pistols could be more easily chopped and sold as back up guns to LEO's, we are now seeing dedicated SA guns coming on the market for CCW.

Go to war, the polymer double stack with two mags gives you over 50 rounds, the single action 1911 at best 24. Ammo resupply in the field being harder than on the street, the modern pistol is superior. That's why it's issued, and the 1911 is reserved for special situations where the environment isnt' as "target rich."

BTW, I don't remember reading that a certain famous terrorist hiding in Pakistan was shot with a pistol. Let's not make too much of it's use.
 
My point is that there are quit a few on here who have never been in a theater of war and they are talking up their polymer side arms like they have some kind of a proven record, but they don't, and I doubt any of them ever will.

In particular someone in another thread said something about a particular polymer hand gun being a real battle gun. That got me thinking, how do you really know? I don't think they can, I think in they just think their gun is the coolest thing since sliced bread because they paid a $1000.00 for a plastic gun.

Some one dropping a gun in water, mud, and sand then shooting a few rounds does not really prove any thing in my mind.


I am not claiming to know for sure that the polymer guns are not going to hold up, but it is my experience that plastic does not wear like metal does. And until a actual fighting force employes one for any length of time how are we to really know that they will be better than what is currently used now.

I also by no means think that the 1911 is the supreme hand gun, I understand how government contracts work, the cheapest one to meat the needs wins the contract, makes one think about what is issued to our troops.

As far as every one being able to choose their own, I think that invites serious logistic problems, how do you keep parts to maintain all the fire arms. For as little as a hand gun is likely to be used, a standard issue is the only way to go.

A list of people with combat experience who disagree with you, and recommend and/or carry poly pistols:

Larry Vickers (Delta)
Paul Howe (Delta)
Kyle Lamb (Delta)
Mike Pannone (Recon Marine, Army SF)
Pat Macnamara (Delta)
Craig Sawyer (DEVGRU)
Jeff "Biggs" (SEAL)
Rob Roy (SEAL)
"Oz" (Army SF)
Jason Falla (Australian SASR)
Kyle DeFoor (SEAL)
 
I wanted to follow up my previous posts by stating clearly that I don't think poly pistols are better or worse than 1911s for "go to war" purposes. They are all clearly in use by true professionals. There are a lot of great choices out there today.
 
When I went to Iraq in 2010/2011, I was issued an M16A2 and a M-9. Some of our guys got M-11s, depending mostly on their MOS. (I think the armorer should have issued them to the people with the smallest hands, we have some petite females.)

I was glad to have it, but not for combat reasons. I was able to ditch my rifle in the secure office and just carry the pistol around on-post. My pistol was serious junk. The armorer told me to keep it because at least I was smart enough to keep it running, all he could do is trade it out to someone else who DIDN'T. I had a feeling that they were giving them to us as a consolation prize for the fact that we were a guard support unit at the tail end of the war, and they weren't going to let us take the nice things to the two-way range and get them dirty.

We had the pistols, but the training was one small step above non-existent. I had soldiers in my squad who had never fired a pistol before, and they got 20 rounds to familiarize, one 40-round qualification, and they took them downrange. I tried to get some of them to the range on our own time before we left for some more training, but no one had the time. I think they were mostly clubs with labels taped to the back straps. In retrospect, I would have much rather been able to give them G-19s, because they are simpler, lighter, more durable, and easier to train rookies with.

But I still would have preferred to take my own Kimber with 500 rounds or so of hardball. Now, I would take my Para SF-45A.
 
Entirely why the French wanted more bullets - their research in trench warfare saw the need, they upped the mag capacity, they were responding to the dynamics of warfare. As nations saw the trend, they all added magazine capacity, and the additional trend of not needing high powered rounds complemented that trend in rifles. Pistols are already low powered short range weapons meant for close combat.
I think you may be assuming too much. The French military specification, in response to which Browning designed the Grande Rendement -- the precursor to the Hi Power -- called for a gun with a magazine capacity of ten rounds. That was not exactly high capacity. It was a bit above what most other pistols back then had, but not that much. And the Broomhandle Mauser -- a design that had been around a good while by then -- could meet that part of the specification. I see no evidence that the French military was fixated on high capacity. Pistols are, and always have been secondary weapons. The French wanted ten rounds capacity. The British, on the other hand, who had fought in that same war and in those same trenches, were perfectly fine hanging onto six shot revolvers back then. And as others have specified, Browning was simply designing the Grande Rendement in response to what the customer was ordering, not his own exclusive notions about what made a better combat pistol.

I see no reason why the 1911 could not be considered war worthy. In mil spec form, it is an extremely reliable pistol. In the U.S. military tests that resulted in the adoption of the Beretta M9, old, clapped out 1911s, which were being used as test control pistols, that had been built no later than 1945, and rebuilt god knows how many times, after having god knows how many hundreds of thousands of rounds through them, came in ahead (in terms of number of malfunctions) of several of the more modern DA pistols competing for adoption.

I would put it this way: had we never adopted the M9, but simply ordered brand new M1911A1s from a contractor like Colt, to replace the more worn out ones in our inventory, I would see no compelling reason to go to the expense of adopting a new pistol. The cost of doing so, of running the tests and re-equipping the military, would exceed the cost of simply maintaining the 1911s, without getting enough in return to compensate for that cost. On the other hand, since we have adopted something else, if we ever wanted to re-adopt the .45ACP as our standard pistol caliber (which I would love), I would not advocate simply re-adopting the M1911A1. Since we would be starting with a clean sheet of paper, it would make more sense to go to a more modern design that will be more economical to manufacture, simpler for armorers to work on and cheaper for the military to maintain, and more forgiving to the novice shooter than a single action only design is, as most military users actually get minimal training with the pistol. And I would recommend a polymer frame pistol. I think they have proven themselves adequately durable with those armies that have used them, and as a former infantryman, I can tell you that you appreciate every last ounce of weight savings when you have to hump upwards of a hundred pounds of gear for ten or twenty miles.
 
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interesting issue raised by billy ^^

IF US wanted to readopt .45, would they go back to single stack 8 shot 1911s?

Makes you think about the options available in .45 today, and by the way answering Billy's idea would further clarify the extent to which 1911 single stack remains viable in war/combat - not speaking of as SD or HD weapon.
 
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