1911 thumb safety?

[Rich357]

When Mr. Browning designed the 1911 pistol did he expect the shooter to keep his thumb over the safety lever so that it couldn't be switched "off" while shooting?

Or, is the problem with switching off the thumb safety a problem with 1911 clones that do not have well fitted parts (like a too easy to move thumb safety)?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[denfoote]

I assume that the condition you are explaining is that the safety is activated by the recoil of the fired round. If this is the case, even with clones, your 1911 is in serious need of the kind ministrations of a benevolent gunsmith!! I would not shoot the weapon until it has been looked over. I'm not an expert on the 1911 (yet), so I couldn't say exactly what is wrong, but I do know that it is in need of help and that the condition it is currently in is a somewhat dangerous one!!

The manual safety on a 1911 is probably the most important part!! That, along with the grip safety, is what prevents the gun from going off inside your holster!!!!!!!

 

[Rich357]

Hi Denfoote,

The safety was moving to "off" by the rubbing of the base if my thumb against the flat part of the safety (left side, single lever) that fits against the frame. The pistol is a new Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special.

I've heard some people say you should put your thumb over the safety lever when shooting the 1911. I would like to know if this the thumb position Mr. Browning expected the shooter to use when he designed the 1911.

I don't think Mr. Browning expected people must keep their thumb on the safety. but maybe someone with more knowledge about the 1911 and Mr. Browning can give me the right answer.


Thanks,
Rich

 

[boing]

No.

The USGI thumb safety is a little nub, nothing like the wide, extended shelves popular today.

The thumb safety was added at the behest of the Army, anyway, so JMB didn't intend for it to be used at all.

 

[SnWnMe]

My gun is a Colt Enhanced Guv'mint Model(I know, I know).

When I rest my thumb on the thumb safety I don't get 100% engagement on the grip safety. My hand is asking for a high ride beavertail for this style of grip. A high ride beavertail has to have that memory groove bump thing for me to actuate it reliably as well. So one thing leads to another...

In the interest of K.I.S.S. I keep my thumb off the safety lever. No problems at all

 

[Rich357]

Thank you, SnWnMe.

Rich

 

[denfoote]

Rich,
I have MY new Springfield 1911A1 in my hand and I still can't figure out what you are talking about!!
When I ride my thumb on the safety and try to squeeze the trigger, it won't reach!!

 

[WonderNine]

The thumb safety was added at the behest of the Army, anyway, so JMB didn't intend for it to be used at all.

I thought it was the grip safety that was added at the behest of the Army and not the thumb safety??

I'm pretty sure about that...

 

[Rich357]

Hi Denfoote,

Congrats on the new SA!

I have not tried putting my thumb on top of my SA Loaded 1911A1. But, I'm not surprised about having difficulty reaching the trigger. One problem I've had with my SA is pushing "on" the safety from the "ambi" side (right side) when the pistol recoils.

Some safeties have a really low, wide, horizontal surface for people to rest their thumb. The safety that comes with the LB TRS isn't that low and wide but some people still suggest putting my thumb on top of the safety.

All the best,
Rich

 

[45auto]

I've always thought if you don't place your thumb on the safety, it might be better to have the older(standard) size safety with a strong detent.

People shoot in many different ways. Some hold their thumb under the safety and touching, others seem to "curl" their thumb down and are not close to the safety. A lot depends on hand size, etc, etc.

I shoot with a high grip and thumb on safety, fairly wide for comfort.
The advantages to thumb on safety, which also means a high grip, is better recoil control and you will never forget to release the safety.

Disadvantages can be that you can't release the grip safety properly all the time and I "read" some people drag the slide with their thumb, causing a malfunction. Both can be attended to a by a competent pistolsmith, at least for many people. Hand size and grip safeties can be a problem with a high hold and a 1911.

IMHO, the advantages are significant enough for someone to give the thumb on safety "a go". It took me awhile to get used to it, but now I think it's the best way to shoot a 1911. Others feel different.

The good news, if your gun has a beavertail( for the high hold), you can have a thumb safety fit for cheap and try it. If it doesn't work for you, go back to the original and no harm done.

 

[Graystar]

I would like to know if this the thumb position Mr. Browning expected the shooter to use when he designed the 1911.

The answer to your question is "no, it is not." The thumb safety was added afterwards. Originally the gun only had a grip safety. Browning, just like Gaston's group, realized that the function of a safety is to prevent the gun from going off when you *don't* want it to go off...not when you do. The grip safety provides this function. The army, however, couldn't understand and requested an "off" switch.

Personally, I just leave all the safeties on all my guns in the "off" position. I am under no delusion of my guns somehow being "safe".

 

[Daniel Watters]

The thumb safety was added at the behest of the Army, anyway, so JMB didn't intend for it to be used at all.

I thought it was the grip safety that was added at the behest of the Army and not the thumb safety??

I'm pretty sure about that...

The latter is one of the most persistent myths spread by a certain gun guru. Both safeties were added upon request. However, the grip safety was one of the first items added by Colt to their post-M1905 military prototypes while the thumb safety was one of the last items added prior to the adoption of the M1911. Military prototypes at late as the Model 1910 were shipped without a thumb safety.

Just think, if the US Army had not intended the pistol for use by Cavalry troopers, we might have been stuck with the M1910, without the ability to carry cocked-'n-locked. For a Cavalry trooper, one could imagine that the post-engagement choices of either clearing the pistol, lowering the hammer over a loaded chamber, or holstering a cocked and unlocked pistol were not terribly appealing alternatives while sitting on the back of a twitchy horse.

 

[C.R.Sam]

I have always shot em with my thumb curled down.
Jillion rounds with no problem....so far.

Sam

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

I rest it on the safety. Can't hurt.

 

[BigG]

The thumb on top of safety is a Jeff Cooperism. It don't work for me so I disregard. A note - if your safety is loose enough to pop up by itself or just a nudge from your extended thumb, it needs to be fixed. There should definitely be a detent both on and off, imho, that's what the little plunger thingie is for.

 

[rayra]

I don't place my thunmb on the safety at all.
Shooting right handed, my right thumb is locked on top of my left thumbnail.
No problem at all.

 

[Rich357]

Thanks very much guys. Very interesting and helpful replies.

I called the manufacturer of the my 1911 and they will be happy to make the detent be more positive.

I hold my guns with my hand pushed up high on the grip and usually with my thumbs point forward or a little down. I understand the reason for putting a thumb on top of the 1911 safety. But, it feels pretty strange. Since I'm not a hard core 1911 guy I would rather not alter my grip too much.

Thanks again,
Rich

 

[Nightcrawler]

My Colt Gov't Model has the classic grip safety and spur hammer. It also has the classic safety lever-not the extended ones you see on a lot of guns these days. If (holding the pistol right handed...I'm a lefty, so I can't do this when firing normally) I rest my thumb on the safety, it shifts my grip at such an awkward angle that I'm not properly depressing the grip safety.

*shrug* All I did was grab the pistol and held it in the most natural-feeling position. I guess I haven't been to enough classes to know that I'm doing it wrong.

 

[popeye]

On every Kimber I've ever had, the extended safety dissengages too easily. In my Galco holster it will "wipe off" with a few body movements. On the Pro carry series 1 I bought, I filed a detent notch in a Colt standard safety, and installed it.

 

[fourdeuce82d]

Interesting responses- I'm surprised by the number of folks that do NOT rest their thumb on the safety- not saying it's bad, just that I thought most people did- that's how I shoot, and how I've seen most other 1911 gunners shoot...I think. I'll make a point of looking more closely next time I go out.

Whatever works- I shoot comfortably that way, so that's what I do.

 

[Old Fuff]

I believe the “rest the thumb on the top of the safety†technique was developed at Jeff Cooper’s Gunsite Training Facility in Arizona. It soon became apparent that some people found the grip to be clumsy or uncomfortable and there were issues concerning depressing the grip safety.

So a new safety was designed that moved the thumbpiece lower on the plate. While this looks a bit strange it works - at least in most cases. It may provide a solution for those who want to rest the thumb on top of the safety (which is a good idea) but not distort their grip.

The Gunsite 1911 Low Mount Safety can be obtained from Brownells at www.brownells.com

 

[Detritus]

The thumb on top of safety is a Jeff Cooperism.

remind me, just how many of our fellow shooters STILL think the "blowhard on the mount" is the font of all wisdom and truth???

when DID this "if it works for Cooper that MUST be THE way to do it" BS come into being. there is a difference between "good form" and "what some well known gun hack finds works for him personally"

as for MY grip, my right thumb is either laid over on along/on the top of my left, if shooting two handed, or slightly curled downward if shooting one handed. thumb does NOT rest on the safety and i've never had a problem with the safety getting bumped. then again i don't shoot guns with "gas pedal" safeties either.

now that i think back on it, the grip i use on a 1911 is probably due to the fact that i learned to shoot pistols with a target gun designed to mimic the grip angle, grip width etc of a 1911 (High standard Supermatic Citation "military"), but with a thumshelf on the left grip panel. thus the "shooting grip" i learned to use for guns that "feel" like a 1911 places my thumb away from the safety.

 

[BigG]

I think JC (Jeff Cooper, not Jesus Christ!) has done a lot to make the old war horse popular and deserves respect on that point at least for beating the drum all those years when the Gubmint Model was a pariah. I also like the Scout Rifle, now that I've tried the Steyr and highly recommend it.

Most of his stuff I take with a grain of salt, like other authors, however he has a gang of faithful that will certainly check in and be heard.

All gun handlers should find out what works for THEM and use that method. If we all had a magazine column, we'd have to fill it up with blather on a regular basis, too, due to little to no change in guns over the average guy's lifetime. Lookit Mas Ayoob - still decrying reloads and modifying trigger pulls, despite over 30 years of NO LEGAL RAMIFICATIONS.

 

[rayra]

"All gun handlers should find out what works for THEM and use that method."
Hear hear.
This news of a specially modified safety strictly to accomodate using the thumb on it during firing (in what I consider a strange grip) is news to me, and sure seems like an argument against such a grip - modifying such a key feature, because your choice of hold doesn't work?? Duh. Maybe it's the choice of hold that is wrong.

 

[Old Fuff]

Concerning Jeff Cooper. There are those who know him through his writings, and then there are those that know him …. I am one of the latter.

The practice of making numerous and often superfluous modification on a combat handgun has no greater opponent then Jeff. As a rule he opposes more of them then he approves. Most of his thoughts on modifications come from his experience as a Marine officer, and later watching literally thousands of different pistols in the hands of students going through his courses at Gunsite. Over time different opinions were formed, but one that has never changed is: Don’t make any changes that won’t provide a specific benefit for you.

What works for one person may not work for another. But sometimes-subtle things, like a flat vs. arched mainspring housing, or a long vs. short trigger fingerpiece can make a difference. During his Marine Corps days he found that extending and widening the fingerpiece on the manual safety worked for him. So he did it. He did not advocate that everyone run out and change their guns, he only suggested that this might be a solution if they had the same problem he did, and so it was with other modifications such as more visible sights.

The proliferation of extended thumbpieces came about because they were adopted as a “must have†by many custom makers or builders. The popular newsstand gun magazines have done as much or more to popularize handgun modification then Cooper ever thought of.