1911 under 3 lb trigger?

[Navy joe]

The original thread: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=335388

Wow! Reminds me of liberal tactics: can't attack the message, so attack the messenger.
The fact is that light triggers in and of themselves are not unsafe. No one has offered any evidence to prove otherwise.
The questions wasn't: Should everyone carry a 1911 with a light trigger? It was: Triggers under 3lbs unsafe or good to go?
Not everyone is competent enough to be safe with a #11 trigger, let alone a #2 one. That is an issue with training, not trigger weight. None of you who claim they are unsafe have offered anything other than rhetoric to support your position. Tossing around terms like "hair trigger" that anti-gunners use to create an emotional response. Blaming light triggers for the stupid act of putting your finger on the trigger before you are ready to shoot is like blaming guns for murder. The shooter is unsafe, not the trigger.

The shooting establishment has always been resistant to change and shunned anything that was outside the norm. Conventional shooters were appalled when practical shooting became a sport. They would claim that it isn't safe to draw from holsters, shoot while on the move, etc. Many predicted the sport would have lots of injuries and wouldn't be around for long. Well, they were wrong. I would be willing to bet that more shooters have been injured at bullseye matches than practical matches. As far as difficulty goes, it's apples and oranges. The skill set required for practical shooting is different and broader than for bullseye. I guess the fact that practical shooting is easier explains why there are so many great practical shooters and so few great bullseye shooters - oh, wait, there aren't that many great practical shooters are there? To say that practical shooting is easier or that "hosing close targets is easy" shows a complete lack of understanding the sport.

Rhetoric? On the con side evidence offered has been from Kuhnhausen and manufacturers specs. This has been added to with numerous opinions since the OP asked what we thought. Rhetoric has been tossed in for good measure.

On the pro side we have rhetoric backed by the anecdotal evidence of the poster defending light pulls. No DA has been brought forth to say they don't care about trigger pull when prosecuting a case. No wrongful death suit has been shown where the defendant had a light pull and got off once the trigger pull was questioned. No manufacturer has been shown to recommend such pulls. What two excellent competition gunsmiths do (Middlebrooks and Londigran) has not much bearing on that, they are building for games. BTW I've played with a CZ trigger D.R. did for D. Horner and a Langdon beretta trigger so I know what can be done. Safely. For a game.

All that is offered by the pro side is "it is a mechanical device, just don't touch it." So you take wildly variable skill levels, parts quality, gunsmith quality, bake it all together, give it an arbitrary value(pull weight) and proclaim light triggers to be safe on the internet. Is your #2 trigger safer than someone else's reading this? Probably? Will others take anecdotal evidence and run with it despite zero understanding of a 1911 trigger or risk assessment? Probably. Will everyone whose light trigger goes bad in a real shooting fess up? Probably not. So we paint a biased picture on the internet when we should be preaching caution and knowledge.

And the question is about carry backhandedly. The OP said he carried this gun. Along with a 14oz pull Para. And had a RocK Island sub #3 NIB. Maybe he needs a new trigger pull gage. Not too many people going to defend 14oz triggers for carry.

So, once more. Light trigger fine for games, not fine for carry. That is my OPINION and I do not wish to aquire the anecdotal evidence to prove it is unsafe as it may hurt, be costly or both. Anyone that says it is fine will be professing their opinion backed by anecdotal and/or hearsay evidence.

 

[Hoser]

We are about a 1/2 post from getting this thread locked...

Keep it civil. If you wouldnt say it to someone in person, dont type it.

 

[Lurper]

No DA has been brought forth to say they don't care about trigger pull when prosecuting a case. No wrongful death suit has been shown where the defendant had a light pull and got off once the trigger pull was questioned.

None has come forward and cited where it was an issue. Even so, in civil suits and to novices it's easy to paint a negative connotation with the term "hair trigger". It's also easy to get an expert to testify that the weight of the trigger is not an issue. The point you missed apparently was the part about not putting your finger on the trigger until you have decided to fire. The gun won't fire if you don't!
As far as "anecdotal" evidence goes, I would argue that my evidence is pretty much empirical since I have fired more than 1 million rounds through 1911's and every one of them has had sub #3 triggers.
Again, no one ever claimed that everyone is safe using one. But the fact remains that light triggers are no less safe than heavy ones.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to portray it as undisputable fact is rather disingenuous. Manufacturers can not economically afford the time it takes to make triggers that light and still compete in the market. I'm sure their attorneys (who are probably not shooters) worry about liability before shootability. Just because a few select gunsmiths opine either way makes it no more fact than the other. I think where everyone agrees is that not everyone is safe with a light trigger. I would argue that those people are not safe period. Regardless of trigger weight. The weight of the pull has no net effect on safety. Unless you want to claim that it somehow enables the gun to fire itself. To claim otherwise is to ignore reality and perpetuate another myth forwarded by those with ulterior motives.

 

[Wild Deuce]

I once asked an expert the following question. I'm defining an expert as someone with more than a casual familiarity with the inside of a courtroom and who has testified as an expert witness in numerous civilian self defense shootings as well as LEO involved shootings.

A similar debate as this one here had been going on in another forum and I asked if the following items were ever the sole factor in bringing a person to trial. My question ... "hair trigger, wrong ammo, high-cap magazine, etc. ..... Has an otherwise justified shooting (met the AOJ criteria) ever gone to trial because of any of these factors?"

His response ...

I've seen several where the core issue in the case was "hair triggers." I've seen all the others come up, but as supportive arguments of overall predisposition to causing harm. Negligence is the element to which the hair trigger applies.

.... [you] will never find such issues under "caselaw," which is formed when higher courts rule on a lower court verdict. The triers of the facts have broad purview to determine what is and is not negligence. Where these cases are found is in talking with people with courtroom experience who've been involved in such trials.

Cases where "hair triggers" were an issue include Florida v. Alvarez and Crown v. Gossett, to name a couple, but were so numerous that many police departments converted their revolves to double action only, and later went with double action only autos.

 

[Navy joe]

Lurper, not my point, you missed it. I summed up both sides. I am not portraying anything as indisputable fact. I believe with the right gun, right person etc a release trigger on a 1911 would be safe, so would a #2. That is not the point. I think most all of us agree that sub #3 triggers are fine for any range and gun game use.

I most certainly did not miss the point about not putting my finger on the trigger. I missed that point 28 years ago after my first ever shot with a gun, a beretta .22. I dropped the gun to my side to admire my handiwork(hit, one dead milk jug). Apparently my finger was still on the trigger and I took the gun away from downrange. Next thing I know I'm laying on the ground, my dad is standing over me, he has the gun and the side of my head hurts, it's on fire! No, no ND, rather I had been disarmed/whalloped upside the head in one smooth motion for my safety transgression. I was 5. Never did that again.

This forum is public. Anyone reads it. I'd rather come across as prudent re light triggers and carry than "Those crazy gun nuts walk around with hair triggers!"

This forum is public. 2 lbs is just a number. Any fool with a pistol can read your extensive experience and decide that his 2lbs is the same as your two lbs and his thinking tackle is the same as yours and go carry something unsafe. There is about one safe way to achieve 2lbs and several unsafe ways.

I think you can see I've been around, shot and owned light triggered guns. I'm still going to argue for careful judgement when carried because I think the OP has shown some irresponsible ideas that if left unchallenged can stand as fact on the public internet. From the other thread a 14oz trigger Para? Carried???? Maybe you could carry that gun safely, could somebody else? What if they carried it in a horz. shoulder holster, the safety happened to be accidentally off, and you were standing behind them in the grocery store? Still feel safe?

Next, burden of proof. Several have said show us a DA that would make it an issue. Show us a case where it mattered. Why should we? Saying that sub #3 triggers are safe for carry is a position that is outside the established norm as per manufacturer specs, published experts, and common use. It seems that the pro light trigger people need to produce experts(published, respected gun experts) to say sub #3 is good to carry. It seems to me that cases need to be found where a light trigger as evidence was laughed out of court.

The "few select gunsmiths" were introduced by the OP as unwitting endorsers of what he wants to carry. As experts in the field of 1911 lock work I'd listen if they recommended their lightest triggers for carry. Probably still wouldn't choose to do it, but accept their word it was safe.

Mechanical issues. I contend that thinned sears, smaller sear/hammer engagement areas, and lighter springs increase the likelihood of mechanical failure. Most will not make the gun go bang. *Click* is also an unsafe sound in a carry gun. May be followed by a boom from another gun not friendly to your cause.

I agree a gun should not fire if the trigger is not pulled. Where in a draw do most people get a finger to the trigger? Not pulling it, just in the guard when a decision to fire has been made. At speed I doubt that anyone does it after the gun is stationary and extended with sights aligned. It is probably in the punch out phase of the draw. Is that an okay place to fire? Maybe. Under the threat of serious bodily harm will a little extra trigger weight prevent an inadvertent shot? Maybe. Plenty of cops out there that have shot their pants or worse because under fire or threat of fire their finger is on the trigger right out of the holster. I am sure that some could still shoot inadvertently with a 10lb trigger, but I don't see where a really light trigger helps anything. No, the pull weight is not itself unsafe, but in practice it is a contributing factor. Another hole in the Swiss Cheese Model of a mishap shooting, or ND since the OP hates that term too.

Data points. Like I said I am unwilling to personally aquire data that light triggers are unsafe for carry. I don't like being a statistic. You contend you are an empirical data source. Maybe, but your data set is limited to those guns you fired. The data is not too valid to this arguement unless they were all carry guns. As to are people being unsafe with light triggers you are one data point.

 

[jmorris]

Wow, with the text book lawyers (I’ll read it if I get time). Maybe the question should have been posted somewhere other than in the competition forum.

 

[Lurper]

Joe, we probably agree on more than we disagree on. I agree that not everyone should carry a gun with a light trigger. Hell, not everyone should carry a gun. But what I take issue with is the notion that light triggers are somehow less safe. By saying they are less safe because someone may have an AD or ND is tantamount to saying it's okay to put your finger on the trigger when you don't intend to shoot (or before you do). It is not and as long as people - particularly people in the industry - keep saying that, the public perception will be that light triggers are unsafe when in reality it is the shooter. Trigger weight in and of itself has no bearing on safety.

As far as my experience goes, if it was one gun that was reliable with a sub #2 pound trigger, I'd feel lucky. Two and I'd feel blessed. But every 1911 I have had has had a trigger pull of #2 or less. Granted, they were all customized from my sponsors and not box stock. But, I have never owned one with a heavier trigger and none of mine have ever followed or doubled. Even my old beat up open class gun. I contend that these are a better test than carry guns because they get shot far more than most people's carry guns (except one). My single stack gun is my carry gun. It also has a light trigger and as I mentioned zero pre-travel or overtravel. It has 30,000 rounds through it in 15 months and I have no problem with the light trigger. Obviously, I trust my life to it.

I have had the opportunity to talk to most of the top 1911 smiths and the consensus is that they can do triggers that light, but won't because they don't trust their customers. Again, not a hardware issue.

I can't speak for everyone, but my safety comes off and my finger touches the trigger when the gun clears the holster and is horizontal. That is safe - the gun is pointing downrange/at the target. Extra weight on the trigger should not be an issue. It certainly isn't for me - the gun is an extension of my hand and I am intimately familiar with it. For some that isn't the case, but again not a hardware issue.

 

[carnaby]

I do my own trigger work on my 1911's, with help from Tuner and Fuf on THR, as well as Kuhnhausen's books. I typically use Ed Brown components in place of stock MIM parts and I get really nice 5-6 lb trigger pulls. Smooth as silk and dependable. I haven't gotten into competition yet, but for a carry gun, these are great.

I like a light pull on my rifles, down to 2.5 lb or less, but on a 1911 I wouldn't want a light pull. I have no idea if they are safe or not, but a really smooth 1911 trigger in the 5 lb. range suites me fine. A clean, repeatable break is the best thing in a 1911 trigger, in my opinion, not an extra light pull.

I think, just like the homeys with the ultra-baggy pants, any good thing can be taken too far. Having an extra light trigger pull is kinda like wearing pants so baggy that they hang below your bottom. We all probably started shooting with bone-stock triggers, and the first time you feel a good trigger, it feels "light" in comparison. We tend to associate the good trigger pull with a light trigger pull and then take it too far. A good pistol shooter should be able to shoot well with a crap trigger, and should appreciate the good trigger. That's my non-expert opinion.

 

[David Detmer]

A person by the name of Massad Ayoob will tell you a 4# trigger is the least you should go for a carry gun and he has been called to testify at trials on trigger pulls and ammo. So don't say it does not happen. His glock has a NY trigger set at 8#'s for many of his comp shoots and records.

 

[cdrt]

Maybe the question should have been posted somewhere other than in the competition forum.

+1

 

[Bob Hostetter]

Addresing only the machnical side side of the issue..........

When Kuhnhausen wrote his book on the 1911 the quality of parts available for the 1911 was complete different from what's available today. Several manufacturer's today market hammers, sears, and disconnectors that will drop into most 1911's at 3.5 lbs using full strength sear springs. Properly tuned they allow sub 2 lbs trigger pulls that are stable and reliable. S7 tool steel heat treated to RC 50 basically eliminates the likehood of the hammer engagement hooks from rolling the edge or the sear face from flattening. The weakest part of the package is now the sear spring and they are much better now then even a few years ago.

The issue of how light is ok for carry is another subject. As a former Marine, retired LEO, Master IDPA and GrandMaster USPSA shooter, current pistolsmith and firearms part manufacturer, I have my own opinions. But then, don't we all................

 

[Navy joe]

Bob, definitely agree with that post. I worry because I know there are self proclaimed smiths out there who would do a trigger job with, say stock Kimber lockwork. Not my cup of tea. I've been a bystander for auto-Glock and auto-Caspian and it draws attention. Both brought on by "gunsmiths." One of them got to my Hi Power before I owned it, fast cyclic rate.

Like I told Eric F. in PM, I have often carried a Cond I Glock in a "mexican loop" I took my time putting it away and would not re-stuff it fully dressed unless it was CIII. I didn't fiddle with the gun in my pants either. I made that safe for me and my level of risk. If someone on the public internet asks how to carry a Glock, or is "Mexican carry safe"? I will tell them to get a stiff belt, a holster that says open, and put it away carefully. Theoretical safety and safety in practice can be two different things especially with variables the internet introduces.

This is a good thread and I think both sides have put forth stuff to make us smarter. I think Eric and I know each other IRL, so I'm pretty sure he is safe enough to do what he does. I can name all the negligent competition shooters I've been near and none of them are Erics.