1911's w/no MIM (overrated)

[jlh26oo]

I gather every manufacturer out there has at least one ultra premium model with no MIM, but not talking about those as much as manufacturers who avoid MIM as a rule. As in you won't FIND a new _______ with MIM, whether it's $800 or $1800.

Sig GSR
Detonics
RRA

So are the above the only ones who skip MIM across their entire line? Or are there others? Let's make the semi custom stuff the cut off, say nothing whose entry model starts at over $2000. I would ASSUME/HOPE that you wouldn't find any injection molded metals in an ed brown, les baer etc.

And yes, of course such a desire is completely blown out of importance/relevance- how would I ever know whether MIM vs forged if it never breaks? Purely academic inquiry here. Not buying one.

 

[1911 guy]

A mental issue.

For some, me included, it's a head game. I want to know that the parts in the handgun I may have to put my or my family's life on the line with are the best stuff.

The only other part of your post I can comment on is Ed Brown. Their internal parts are not MIM. I bought a complete set (extractor, ejector, hammer, sear, disconnector and hammer strut) for my S.A. GI.

 

[Onmilo]

I don't know if this will make you feel all warm and fuzzy because I use a lot of Ed Brown 1911 parts and quite a bit of it is cast tool steel.

Just the same all of the stuff I have bought and used has been hardened properly and it can be worked and polished unlike MiM parts.

 

[Old Fuff]

Over the long run an MIM internal extractor will probably give you trouble because it can't be spring tempered, and the extractor, as designed by Browning, is supposed to be a leaf spring.

The slide stop pin is subjected to considerable shock as the slide goes into battery. On any of my guns I want that part made out of real-steel, not a powdered metal composite.

I don't think they are using them anymore, but when Springfield Armory used MIM hammer struts they broke, and when they did the pistol was completely disabled. No, they didn’t issue a recall.

The lug on the safety lock (manual safety) has some sharp corners and edges and I worry about an imperfect lug breaking off.

Hammers and sears, particularly hammers in the hooks area have sharp edges that have to stay that way. If what amounts to sintered metal hooks should chip or break off you are in a world of hurt.

But mostly what I worry about is that the gun makers, with the possible exception of Kimber, don't make this stuff themselves. They buy it from outside vendors - often for the lowest possible price. Remember lowering manufacturing costs is the driving force behind using MIM parts.

It is one thing to use MIM parts that are designed in the first place to utilize that technology. It is another to use MIM parts that simply duplicate a part that's supposed to be made another way.

 

[45auto]

Springfield, Colt, Kimber, Smith, Para all have some MIM no matter how much you spend. So, I don't believe you can avoid MIM, unless you replace it.
Even the Springfield Professional has a couple of MIM parts.

Aside from the GSR and Detonics, you have to go to the "semi-custom" to eliminate the MIM. And, they use some cast parts of course. Beavertail, thumb safety, mainspring housing on some, frames in some cases and I believe some slide stops. Is properly done cast better than properly done MIM?

I have tens of thousands of rounds through MIM sears, disconnectors, etc with no problems. Then, I see a picture of a MIM part that splits in half where it shouldn't...Ha!

Old Fuff knows a lot more than I, so there are parts that shouldn't be MIM.
I'd take the "chance" with them on hammers, sears, disconnects, beavertails, thumb safeties and that's about all it since as I understand it, if they are bad, they fail early.

If it's a carry gun, I'd shoot a lot of rounds quick or have them replaced. I don't believe most 1911s sold are used as carry guns to be honest, except the little ones which is ironic since MIM may be the least of your problems.

 

[Ala Dan]

Fill In The Blank

Les Baer

 

[MrDig]

Ok I'll bite what is MIM an acronym for?

 

[doubleg]

Metal Injection Molding

 

[medic_guns]

Made In Mexico

 

[Black Majik]

Non MIM 1911s:

Rock River
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
Nighthawk
SIG GSR

For me MIM doesn't bother me. I buy the semi-custom stuff more so for the fit and finish than the materials used. No MIM in my 1911s is just a bonus. But almost all production firearm makers now use MIM in their guns.

Oh well...

 

[Pumpkinheaver]

I have about 10,000 rounds through my series 1 kimber with no problems. I think the whole MIM talk is just that talk.

 

[greg531mi]

I have about 10,000 rounds through my series 1 kimber with no problems

You are probally one of the lucky ones, before they changed to MIM parts, the newer ones have them.....

 

[Black Majik]

You are probally one of the lucky ones, before they changed to MIM parts, the newer ones have them.....

Huh? Series I or Series II, both Kimbers have MIM parts.

MIM is blown way out of porportion. If a MIM part is going to fail, it usually fails early in the part's life. If it's still going strong after a few thousand rounds, chances are it'll last for a long, long time.

Yes, I have 1911s with MIM parts, and 1911s without MIM parts. I have no need to go swap out all internals on my MIM guns. I'll fix them as they break, but so far so good.

 

[jrhines]

Old materials science adage - "There are no bad plastics,-

Just bad applications of plastics!' Substitue MIM for plastic, 'bout the same results. You can make a spring out of concrete, but it's a lousy spring.

 

[jlh26oo]

Ok think that answers it.

Nighthawk was the one I left out.

Thanks.

 

[DAVE RICHARDS]

I had a SA 1911 LW Compact that the extractor would not work (couldn't be tensioned, wouldn't stay tensioned) right out of the box. Replaced it with a Wilson Bulletproof model and no more problems for 14,000 rounds until the gun was sold. I got a new SA Ultra Compact.
To save problems I put a Wilson Bulletproof extractor in ASAP. It broke the claw off at 200 rounds. Went back to the stock extractor and it chirps right along. My point is this. My experience has been it doesn't matter if it is MIM or forged. What matters is that it is produced properly. My SA LW Compact was left stock beidesthe extractor including the MIM parts and ha no trouble for 14,000 rounds. And as far as I know is still ticking right along. Also had some of the best bar stock parts break.
Almost all new guns except the ultra expensive 1911's have MIM parts. I've seen problems with MIM parts. I've seen problems with bar stock parts. Been told by engineers it's all in the proper handling of either process. Done right MIM parts are roughly 98% as tough as bar stock. Screw up either and you've got problems. Certain companies seem to do well at the MIM process. Others screw up regularly. They give all MIM parts a bad name.
Truth is our cars, bikes, and alot of other things we depend on everyday have these parts and most folks will never know it. Just like some of the early aluminum framed 1911's had some bad castings that cracked. And stories of weak 1911 aluminum frames still persist. Yet most of us will never have a problem with our aluminum framed weapons. Better quality control would eliminate most of these problems. Not "throwing the baby out with the bathwater".

 

[sig1911]

Non MIM 1911s:

Rock River
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
Nighthawk
Springfield GSR

Wilson Combat does have some parts made of MIM,but not critical parts like hammer,firing pin,firing pin stop,sear,extractor,ejector,slide stop,barrel,frame etc.
for Springfield,I doubt it has any pistol without MIM parts.
for rock river,I have no idea,they could no mim applied on their custom pistol.

 

[srtboise]

i also have a first gen kimber with 10,000ish rounds thru it. not a single problem in the nearly 9 years i have had the gun. kimber has used mim from day one. if mim parts were so fragile i dont think that virtually every firearm manufacturer would be using them. if mim parts were breaking all the time many companies would go out of business due to warranty expenses.

i will be surprised if anyone can show concrete evidence that mim parts in guns fail significantly more frequently than 'traditionally' manufactured parts.

steve

 

[Old Fuff]

If mim parts were so fragile i dont think that virtually every firearm manufacturer would be using them.

Sure they would. If they didn't they couldn't go head-to-head in the marketplace with those who did.

If mim parts were breaking all the time many companies would go out of business due to warranty expenses.

Naw, most 1911 guys tinker with them themselves or go to a local gunsmith. But you miss the point. While relatively few parts go bad, if it happens to someone at the wrong time they may not be around to get it fixed. The makers are depending on the knowledge that most of their products end up as big-boy toys, not serious weapons.

Also most other manufacturers that use MIM parts have the parts designed for this technology, and yes - then they work well. But in the 1911 platform the makers have the older parts DUPLICATED using MIM technology. Sometimes this works, but sometimes it doesn't.

 

[Thefabulousfink]

This whole MIM/no MIM thing reminds me of 2 bolt/4 bolt Chevy 350 engines.

A Chevy 350(v-8) has 6 main caps that hold the crank shaft to the engine block. These caps are held on by 2 bolts each, 90% of all car engines are like this. A while back Chevy decided to put 2 more bolts in the center 4 main caps. That is all they did, 2 more holes and 2 more bolts, however sales took off. People all over wanted the 4 bolt model because they thought "it has more horsepower" or "it's tougher/stronger." The fact is there is no difference in performance between a 2 bolt and 4 bolt engine. Unless there is a flaw in the metal, the main caps are probably the least likely part to fail due to stress, and if anything, the 4 bolt mains are weaker because they have 2 extra holes drilled in them.

Because of marketing and the fact that 4>2, most hot-rodders and backyard mechanics try to buy 4 bolt 350s over 2 bolt (even though 2 bolt are usually cheaper and easier to find). I think that it is the same way with guns. Almost every gun company uses some MIM parts these days. If the MIM process is done correctly the parts are just as strong as forged parts. I think that if they come from a reputable company with good quality control, the chances of a MIM part failing are the same as a non-MIM part.

 

[Black Majik]

Non MIM 1911s:

Rock River
Les Baer
Wilson Combat
Nighthawk
Springfield GSR

Wilson Combat does have some parts made of MIM,but not critical parts like hammer,firing pin,firing pin stop,sear,extractor,ejector,slide stop,barrel,frame etc.
for Springfield,I doubt it has any pistol without MIM parts.
for rock river,I have no idea,they could no mim applied on their custom pistol.

No. Wilson Combat used to use MIM parts in their steel 1911s prior to 2003. Their current production 1911s do not have any MIM parts.

Now, the KZ-45 on the other hand, still uses MIM parts on major parts such as the sear and hammer. The KZ-45 is the only WC pistol currently still using MIM.

Springfield Armory uses MIM parts on every 1911 they produce, even on their flagship PROFESSIONAL model. MIM parts on the PRO include the mag catch, slidestop and grip safety.

 

[ugaarguy]

GSR

The GSR is made by SIG - not Springfield - and it contains no MIM.

 

[Black Majik]

LOL good catch ugaarguy. I meant SIGarms. Brainfart.

 

[ugaarguy]

If the MIM process is done correctly the parts are just as strong as forged parts.

No they aren't. As Old Fuff has explained, you cannot spring temper MIM. You cannot make a MIM extractor that duplicates one that's machined or forged and spring tempered as per the original specs.

I think that if they come from a reputable company with good quality control, the chances of a MIM part failing are the same as a non-MIM part.

I challenge anyone who thinks this to search MIM in posts by both 1911Tuner and Old Fuff. I thought the same thing until someone suggested I do said search. These two gentlemen have far more real world experience than most on this board. Do the search and see what you think.

 

[Old Fuff]

We talking guns or cars here?

(The Old Fuff admits he's no car mechanic... )

If the MIM process is done correctly the parts are just as strong as forged parts.

Not necessarily, a lot of alloy/heat treating options that can be used on forgings won't work on MIM castings.

I think that if they come from a reputable company with good quality control, the chances of a MIM part failing are the same as a non-MIM part.

Again not necessarily so. Look at Springfield Armory's former hammer struts, and no one has shown that the gun companies in question aren't buying from the lowest bidder.

Ya got a lot of "if's" in there...