1911's w/no MIM (overrated)

[mljdeckard]

I have a series II Kimber with almost 10k rounds through it.

I regard it as perfect and I will probably be buried with it.

I had never heard of the MIM distinction before I bought it, and I have never had any reason to mess with it. What I immediately wondered when I did hear of this perceived crisis, was "What do you have to do to a 1911 to make this stuff break that me and LAPD SWAT haven't gotten around to yet?"

I THINK, if you have a gun that works just fine as it is, the worst thing you can possibly do to it is start taking it apart and replacing parts that were already tuned perfectly. If you have a 1911 that works fine, and you start messing with springs and tension, what good can come of it?

I paid $630 for my Kimber NIB. (I added night sights, wrap around grips, and dropped the guide rod. I'll also put in a arched mainspring housing with a lanyard loop when I get around to it.) I went to Impact, and they had a new top of the line $2700 Nighthawk. So, the curiousity got the better of me, and I decided I wanted to see what a $5 milkshake tastes like. One taste, a deeper taste, pause to consider, and WOW! It was good. It was great. What can it do that my Kimber can't do? Absolutely nothing.

 

[robertbank]

I hate to add this to the list but Norincos do not have any MIM parts in them. Just tool steel and very good steel at that.

Take Care

Bob

 

[jlh26oo]

Hate to add?

No plastic in Norincos?

 

[dmftoy1]

I'm always curious when I see these MIM threads if there has ever been a case of a forged version of the same part breaking?

The connecting rods in my diesel pickup are MIM and it's been turned up and with 170,000 miles on it they are still working just fine. I have a really hard time imagining that any part in my 1911 is getting more stress than the connecting rods on my diesel when it's pulling a 12k trailer up and over the Eisenhower pass on I-70. (1250 degree exhaust gas temps for 20-30 minutes on end with 24 PSI of boost)

The corvette's connecting rods have been made of MIM for (I think) the last 5 years or longer. If MIM tech was so bad I suspect we'd be hearing about it.

Just my .02

I personally think that a badly made MIM part is probably a POS . . .but one that's properly built is probably damn close in quality to a well made forged part. I just wonder whether it's possible to have a badly made forged part. (I have no clue)

I think I remember similiar debates about Polymer when the glocks first came out . . I don't particularly LOVE a Polymer pistol, but I have to admit that durability wise they hold up great.

Have a Merry Christmas!

Dave

 

[Old Fuff]

Of course "real-steel" parts (forged or machined from bar stock) have been known to break, but the issue here is a bit different.

When a part (in anything) is designed to be made using MIM technology, and the materials therein meet the requirements of the application, they generally work out well. But if MIM technology is used to duplicate a part not designed to be made using that particular method of fabrication, and the materials therein do not meet the specifications - particularly regarding heat treating - that were originally required when the part was made from a forging or steel alloy you can have problems, and the 1911 platform is a good example where this can and does sometimes happen.

In most cases this is not consequental, but if the pistol is carried or used as a weapon the difference can be critical.

 

[robertbank]

jlh26oo

The only plastic on the Norincos are ther grips and I would hardly regard that is a significant issue or germaine to this discussion.

As to MIM parts I think there is a lot of wasted spit on this subject. Gunsmiths made a living fixing firearms long before investment castings and MIM parts started showing up in firearms. In fact the steels used in early 1911's and 1911's made during the war years, while forged are hardly as durable as the steels, including MIM parts that are made today. Ruger SA revolvers use MIM and cast parts and I don't think anyone here would argue Rger handguns have a reputation of being anything but very strong and durable guns.

Sure you can make and some manufacturers do continue to make 1911's with all forged parts but they sell for amounts far more than most of want to pay for a handgun.

Take Care

Bob

 

[ugaarguy]

The connecting rods in my diesel pickup are MIM and it's been turned up and with 170,000 miles on it they are still working just fine. I have a really hard time imagining that any part in my 1911 is getting more stress than the connecting rods on my diesel when it's pulling a 12k trailer up and over the Eisenhower pass on I-70. (1250 degree exhaust gas temps for 20-30 minutes on end with 24 PSI of boost)

Again, MIM is not inherently bad - your engine was designed knowing MIM would be used - as long as the QC is good those parts will be fine. 1911s were designed with the knowledge that forged parts would be used.

The corvette's connecting rods have been made of MIM for (I think) the last 5 years or longer. If MIM tech was so bad I suspect we'd be hearing about it.

Once again, the Corvette has gotten entirely new engines in both the C5 (began production '97 model year) and C6 (began production '05 model year) redesigns. They knew MIM would be used, so they engineered the parts to the mfg. process. My buddy who's a Nissan guy has informed me that there are actually two engines used in the 350Z. They're the same 3.5 VQ series V6, but the 350Z Touring edition gets forged internals instead of MIM. Apparently the all "tuners" are getting their hands on the engine with forged guts for high performance builds.

I personally think that a badly made MIM part is probably a POS

Which is correct

. . .but one that's properly built is probably damn close in quality to a well made forged part.

Raw quality - yes. Quality for application - not neccesarily. Look at my previous post - you cant spring temper MIM like you can a part that's forged or machined from stock. The 1911's extractor requires this spring temper. Also, see Old Fuff's posts regarding sharp corners and hooks on the thumb safety and hammer/sear juncture respectively. The MIM part can be of incredible quality, but the inability to perform the same heat treatment processes to it as a forged/machined part causes it to fail in some applications. No one here is arguing that MIM parts are inherently bad - we're saying they're bad when their inherent properties are incompatible with the specs for that part.

I just wonder whether it's possible to have a badly made forged part. (I have no clue)

Yes it is. Just as it's possible to have a badly made part using any manufacturing process. Which is where we get to the other side of the equation. Even if the mfg. process is correct for the application a poorly made part is a poorly made part, and it won't work properly either.

 

[dmftoy1]

Just playing devil's advocate here as I am not a metalurgist and I'm lucky to not have to depend on my pistol to save my life and I hope never to.

That being said, my argument about the MIM connecting rods fits perfectly. My engine is a 7.3L diesel. It's been in production for quite a long time. (look at any school bus and if it says 444E on the side it has that engine) In Mid-2001 or Mid-2002 they made a switch from forged connecting rods to MIM connecting rods. The MIM rods were a part that was designed to replace a forged part. I can swap a forged set of rods into my motor or swap MIM parts directly into a motor that has forged parts. I don't see any difference between a 1911 designed in 190x with a forged slide stop and an appropriately designed MIM replacement being dropped in sometime during the 200x model year.

Anyway, I respect your opinion, and I'm not saying it's not valid as I don't have the education to know. People smarter than I am have had this argument with me on the diesel side of the equation. I wish I could find a picture one of the Ford engineers sent me of a motor down in florida that had injested water. The (MIM) connecting rods on that baby were bent at about a 45 degree angle. The amount of stress that those rods would have had to taken to do that is pretty incredible and they were bent as bad as any forged rod I've ever seen.

Have a good one,
Dave

 

[ugaarguy]

I wish I could find a picture one of the Ford engineers sent me of a motor down in florida that had injested water. The (MIM) connecting rods on that baby were bent at about a 45 degree angle.

Not gun related, but dang - I'd like to see that.

 

[robertbank]

ugaarguy

"1911s were designed with the knowledge that forged parts would be used."

Horse Pucky! MIM parts weren't around in 1911. The 1911 was not designed around forged parts anymore than airplanes were designed around cloth wings and that is a fact. Just happened that is what they were using then.

The 1911 is a great design but beyond it's age and simplicity there is nothing unique about it's design over any number of other auto loaders that would suggest it requires forged parts to operate with effectively. In fact given the large number of 1911's made with MIM parts the evidence suggest the opposite.

MIM, cast and forged methods are different ways of getting to the same place.

Take Care

Bob

 

[ugaarguy]

"1911s were designed with the knowledge that forged parts would be used."

Horse Pucky! MIM parts weren't around in 1911. The 1911 was not designed around forged parts anymore than airplanes were designed around cloth wings and that is a fact. Just happened that is what they were using then.

You don't need to yell. You're comparing a specific pistol, the M1911, to a general group of other machines, air planes. The fact that MIM parts weren't around then proves my point - you design things to be made using available manufacturing processes. In the early 1900s metal gun parts were either forged or machined from stock (bar, round, flat, etc.). Hence, the 1911 was designed with knowledge those mfg. processes would be used, and the properties inherent to those processes factored in.

In fact given the large number of 1911's made with MIM parts the evidence suggest the opposite.

Given that Wilson, C&S, and others are selling tons of spring tempered machined steel extractors, along with C&S' other internals that are EDM cut from plate stock suggest that MIM isn't working in the 1911 as well as some would want us to think. Show me a spring tempered MIM extractor.

 

[lycanthrope]

I don't mind MIM, but I don't thikn it should be used in all applications on a firearm and I think there are wide variations in the quailty of MIM.

On some Kimbers, it is possible for the grip safety to be depressed far enough allow the hammer to drop, but not enough to push the series II plunger/firing pin block all the way up and out of contact with the firing pin. This will cause light strikes and eventually the firing pin block will break and render the gun unfireable (until you yank out the FP block).

My Kimber Eclipse Target II was sent back twice for this.
In that instance I think a different steel may be a better choice....

I shot about 6K rounds a year out of that gun so lesser usage guns may not have issue, but the last time it broke it got yanked out and thrown in the trash.

 

[rodinal220]

Dan Wesson 1911s are no MIM.A real sleeper of a 1911.

http://www.cz-usa.com/products_dan_wesson.php?m=1

 

[Zach S]

Edited. I'm not doing the 2 bolt vs 4 bolt argument again, especially at a firearms forum.

 

[robertbank]

ugaarguy

Who is yelling? Your point is hardly made. To use your logic we wpould still be making 1911's out of softer steel than used today and spot heat treating frames. I am not aware of any standard 1911 extractors made by way of the MIM method. Lots that aremn't made of spring steel though and therein lies the problem. Had advanced polymers been around at the turn of the century you might have seen the gun frame made of same but they weren't, Colt used what manufacturing processes they had at the time which didn't include MIM methods. The internal extractor was likely chosen over the external coil spring type to make it eassier to replace when they broke and for no other reason. That hardly makes them better just easier to fix when they fail and they do fail. FN changed the Hi-Power extractors over to external coil spring in 1966 as the latter were less likely to break and worked just as well or better.

Forged parts certainly is one method of forming a part but not the only way. They do require more hand fitting and more labour to complete. Doesn't make them necessarily better just more expensive to produce.

If forged parts were all bullet proof gunsmithing would be a relatively new profession. Gunsmithing isn't and forged parts aren't.

Take Care

Bob

 

[ugaarguy]

Mr. Bank, have a read http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=229073&highlight=observations. When I realized 1911s just work for me I wanted to learn as much as I could about them. Tuner and Fuff have been kind enough to share their knowledge here on THR. I've read, researched, and searched some more. I've yet to find any fault with these two gentlemen have written. That is but one link of many that I've read here and elswhere. I'm not going to go back thru all the web searches just to link them. I used the search feature here, and search engines for the rest of www. I've drawn my conclusions based sources I've found to be reliable. I'll end my posting in this thread with that, as I do not want this discussion to deteriorate. Have a good day.

 

[Old Fuff]

Who is yelling? Your point is hardly made. To use your logic we wpould still be making 1911's out of softer steel than used today and spot heat treating frames.

They are making frames and slides out of better steel alloys, but not fabricating them using MIM technology. Frames incidentally weren't spot heat treated, slides were.

I am not aware of any standard 1911 extractors made by way of the MIM method.

Those used by Springfield Armory are, and perhaps some of the smaller makers.

Lots that aren't made of spring steel though and therein lies the problem.

True as far as I know, but they are made out of tool steel, that unlike an MIM part can be heat treated and tempered.

Had advanced polymers been around at the turn of the century you might have seen the gun frame made of same but they weren't, Colt used what manufacturing processes they had at the time which didn't include MIM methods.

Obviously true, but the point is that he designed the parts and specified the materials and heat treatment that were best suited to his design.

The internal extractor was likely chosen over the external coil spring type to make it eassier to replace when they broke and for no other reason.

No, breakage wasn't an issue and Browning's earlier designs had external extractors. He changed so that the extractor could be removed for cleaning without tools. External extractors required a pin punch and hammer at a minimum. The Army requested a pistol that could be completely disassembled without special tools, and that's what Browning came up with.

That hardly makes them better just easier to fix when they fail and they do fail.

Obviously being able to fix or replace a broken part in a military service pistol without special tools is an advantage...

FN changed the Hi-Power extractors over to external coil spring in 1966 as the latter were less likely to break and worked just as well or better.

No, they changed because they felt that it was an acceptable, but not necessarily better alternative that would lower manufacturing costs. Also if dirt gets packed around the coil spring you can have a real problem.

Forged parts certainly is one method of forming a part but not the only way. They do require more hand fitting and more labour to complete. Doesn't make them necessarily better just more expensive to produce.

While it is true that MIM technology can produce a less expensive part, one that is made of high carbon steel - either a forging or bar stock - can be heat treated in ways that a MIM part can't. How important this is depends on the application. However I prefer to not stake my neck on something that is picked out by the company bean counter trying to save a few pennies.

There is that old saying about being penny wise and pound foolish, and nowhere does this better apply then to a defensive sidearm.

 

[sm]

JMB designed many firearms , including the 1911.
1911 was designed as a Combat pistol. I dunno, to me that means incoming fire and outgoing fire and the bullets that are not whizzing by are injuring and killing folks. Serious Stuff in my book.

Imitation is said to be the nicest compliment. Fine.
If you want to imitate buy an imitation. I had plastic with el cheap metal parts in a dart gun , that looked like a 1911 , that I fired suction cup darts at the TV and whatever else as a kid. Even had a horsey on the imitation stocks.

These Clones, Imitators, and whatever else don't give much whit about nothing except taking money for a product and making a profit. Not real damn comforting in my book if that pistol was bought to be used as a Combat Pistol.

Internet reveals a lot about more folks and true selves with anonymity than we ever had before.

We can better find out what people, and mfgs are "really" thinking, believing and doing.

Give me what JMB designed - with real parts.

These Imitators and Clone folks - if they are so damn smart, why don't they design a new pistol that will out perform the proven 1911 with real parts and test the damn thing.

Funny though, everyone that has - uses, wishes, hopes to be and all uses the design attributes JMB did.

Just like drug companies want their drug to be as good and have the success as Aspirin.

Bulls Eye shooters KNEW when they changed the 1911 to shoot Bulls eye they were messing with a design. The did not , do not expect a Bulls Eye gun to be a Combat Pistol.

Damn wannabes and wallet flushes - just what has the world come to?

 

[Old Fuff]

sm:

These Imitators and Clone folks - if they are so damn smart, why don't they design a new pistol that will out perform the proven 1911 with real parts and test the damn thing.

In fact several have tried. But their market studies showed that not enough potential buyers were interested. What they wanted was the original Browning pistol, exactly the way he designed it, (possibly with some cosmetic changes), and made using the materials and methods used in say, during the 1950's...

And not retail for over $600.00

These folks know next to nothing about gun making, and see no reason they shouldn't be able to get what they want, for what they want to spend.

 

[robertbank]

"Obviously true, but the point is that he designed the parts and specified the materials and heat treatment that were best suited to his design"

With what he ahd to work with which incidently did not include MIM parts.

"if dirt gets packed around the coil spring you can have a real problem."

You have a real problem if the internal extractors get dirt pluged in them as well. Tool steel is not spring steel and dropping a slide on chambered case wil in time snap an extractor, a coil spring extractor is less likely to break under those circumstances.

"However I prefer to not stake my neck on something that is picked out by the company bean counter trying to save a few pennies."

What is the difference between a "bean" counter picking a forged part out of a bin then having to fit it to make it work as opposed to the same person picking a part out of bin that requires less work to fit. Seems to me you are just getting a part installed.

"There is that old saying about being penny wise and pound foolish, and nowhere does this better apply then to a defensive sidearm."

So are you better off unarmed because you can't afford to pay $1,200 - $2,000 for a 1911 with all forged parts (Except Norincos of course $325Cdn up here NIB) or buying a gun for $900 that has two or three parts that are MIM with failure rates that are equal to forged parts. With respect Sir, isn't it fair to say that no matter how many times a mechanical device works it can fail. I would suggest for the average shooter out there the chances of him/her needing the gun to defend his life are even less than it is of having the gun fail when and if he/she requires the guns use.

If you are hung up on MIM and cast parts replace them, I'm not and don't. As for pennies, I suspect it is much more than pennies that are involved.

What is interesting is one only really hears this discussion when discussing 1911's. For the CZ's, Sigs,Tanfoglios, Glocks and others we accept the pistols as they are made and are happy. While I enjoy my 1911's, my favourite pistol actually, there are other autos out there of more advanced design and certainly capable of doing the job as well as the 1911. The one major thing the 1911 has is an outstanding S/A trigger though I must say my old CZ 85 Combat Pre B comes very close.

Take Care and Merry Christmas.

Bob







Take Care

Bob

 

[sm]

Well I miss not paying .23 a gallon for gas, bread for .29 a loaf and getting a real home made hamburger for .25 too.

I suck it up, paid $2.19 a gal for gas, bread was 2.09, and the local Mom&Pop diner gets $3.95 for a huge home made burger, home fries, and drink.

IIRC I paid $175 for a NIB Colt Combat Commander in Steel as HS grad gift to myself in '73.
My first Marilin 60 NIB I paid for ( a new gun, not a used one) was $29 at a gun store.


There is hardly anything some man cannot make cheaper and sell for less. Those that buy based on price alone are this man's prey - John Ruskin

Folks will pay too much money for a clone, spend more money to gussie it up, and it looks cool, still don't run.

Take that kind of money and one could afford to buy a REAL gun as JMB designed.

It all went south when drive in pictures shows closed up...yep, sure did.

At least they ain't screwed up drinking straws so one can't shoot spit wads - yet.

arrrggghhhh!!

Progress - are we progressing forward or progressing backwards? I really wonder at times.

Excuse me - I need to hold a #2 pencil and look at a real 1911 - I know these work and are proven...got my Zippo lighter handy too.

 

[Adrianos]

More "No MIM" 1911's

The S&W Performance Center 1911's do not have any MIM parts in them, but the regular line does, according to a S&W rep that I spoke with today.

 

[jlh26oo]

Excellent. Good to know about the performance centers.

You know what's funny about S&W's line is, they use those wavy serrations on most of their PC 1911's, but I saw one with STRAIGHT serrations not too long ago on GB. That would be nice, but for that kind of jack you could get an entry level semi-custom. Not that the latter is necessarily any better. Wish I could afford either.