1st Accessories for AR15

[hawg]

I used to share this as my own common advice, until airsoft firearms became available and I was able to experience force-on-force training for the first time.

The first FoF scenario I ever experienced was simulation of waking up to an intruder standing the bedroom door. Out of dozens of attempts by a handful of students, NONE were able to land a shot on the assailant before the intruder was able to get a dominant physical position and deflect the muzzle of a long gun. Equally, it was VERY quickly realized that many of us instinctively regripped the pump when trying to disarm the defender (when playing the attacker in the scenario), so after the first shot fired into the wall during the struggle, we were then holding the pump out of battery, disabling the weapon.

Alternatively, creating space to retain a handgun away from a CQD assailant was east and instinctive. The risk wasn’t fully mitigated, but we’re able to put rounds on bad guys near 100%, whereas with long guns, the result was 0%.

So forever onward, I have given up any long gun as a sole option for defense. Sure, go clear rooms with a long gun, but a handgun should be in the mix somewhere, especially on the nightstand.

I do have my trusty 1911 on the nightstand but the pump is my go to weapon and it slam fires. If I have time to get off a shot I firmly believe I'll get a second one. If I don't have time I'll go for the 1911 but if the attackers intent is to do me bodily harm and I don't have time to put the shotgun into play I'm history anyway.

 

[JAshley73]

Slight thread derail, (and I'm fine with it.) But I don't understand the fascination with pump shotguns for defensive work.

Will they work? Sure. So would a single action revolver, but I don't see people recommending them for everyday carry.

Under stress, the likely hood of screwing up the manual cycle of the pump-action seems far higher than the likelihood of a quality semi-auto shotgun jamming. I can remember exactly (2) jams with my Beretta semi-auto over a couple thousand rounds. One, the shell hung before entering the chamber. Jogging the bolt handle let it slight right in & fire. The 2nd, was when I port-loaded a shell backwards... Could easily be done on a pump gun too... And a pump gun could just as easily have a shell snag before chambering, just the same as a semi-auto gun...

If I lived on a farm or ranch, I could certainly see my "go to" gun being a shotgun. Pump even, sure. When you might have to shoot something with 4 legs, or 2 legs, outside, sure, why not.

Inside, though, I do feel like there's better options, especially for someone like me that doesn't get to train & practice as much as we would like.

I can't think of another weapon (that we would reasonably consider for defensive use) that requires more coordinated manipulation, training, and practice than a shotgun, for defensive use.

And that's coming from someone who loves shotguns. (And I'm not really looking for a shotgun vs. AR15 debate either...)



More in the next post. I'm intentionally separating these posts for a reason.

 

[JAshley73]

So I took an unplanned trip to the range today. 25 yard indoor. Took my 12ga with some light-recoil slugs, AR15, and my carry pistol - M&P Shield 9mm.

Of the (3), I'm by far, most comfortable with the pistol. It doesn't get any simpler than a striker fired pistol, with no manual safeties, and XS big-dot sights. Draw, cover the target with the front dot, and pull the trigger. At 10 yards, it's no trouble to hold shots in a smaller than torso sized circle. Plenty of room for improvement sure, but certainly manageable, and couldn't be simpler.

Then (5) rounds @ 25 yards with the 12ga. Standing, unsupported, shooting 1oz 1,200fps slugs. All (5) shots in a pie-plate. Not bad. But I still had to re-load at least one shell to fire #5... And these are reduced-recoil loads. A 00 buck load, or 1,600 fps slug would be way slower on followup shots.

Last, the AR15. At 25 yards, I'm holding almost softball sized groups, standing, unsupported, with iron sights. Much simpler loading/re-loading procedure. The safety is easier to operate than the shotgun. Followup shots are quicker.

Sadly, I think the AR15 is easier to use than the shotgun. And that hurts me, as a shotgun lover. But I can't really ignore the truth here...




Certainly more training & practice can improve performance with any/all of those weapons. But in the real world, in my current season of life, the pistol is easiest to employ quickly. Then the AR15, and sadly, the shotgun in last place.

I think this is going to guide my HD/SHTF gun questions more realistically. Probably XS big-dot sights for my night-stand gun. Maybe even a multi-cal suppressor? Then accessories for the AR15.

Just sharing & thinking out loud. Thank you all for bearing with me.

 

[litework]

I am not being contrary or downplaying the effectiveness of a pistol in a home defense situation. It just sounds like the biggest bang for your buck in terms of *improvement* would be with the rifle and shotgun. You can put some marginally quicker sights on your pistol but you might not gain a whole lot. While you're waiting for your suppressor to be released from custody, you could get a red dot for less than $130 bucks plus an additional cost for ammo and maybe improve your speeds and comfort level on that rifle.

 

[powermad]

Trying to make one thing fit many roles usually winds up being it not working the way you want when you need it.
That pretty much goes for anything, not just guns.

Better to have a toolbox with a selection of tools for the job at hand to choose from.

 

[Chuck R.]

Slight thread derail, (and I'm fine with it.) But I don't understand the fascination with pump shotguns for defensive work.

Will they work? Sure. So would a single action revolver, but I don't see people recommending them for everyday carry.

Under stress, the likely hood of screwing up the manual cycle of the pump-action seems far higher than the likelihood of a quality semi-auto shotgun jamming. I can remember exactly (2) jams with my Beretta semi-auto over a couple thousand rounds. One, the shell hung before entering the chamber. Jogging the bolt handle let it slight right in & fire. The 2nd, was when I port-loaded a shell backwards... Could easily be done on a pump gun too... And a pump gun could just as easily have a shell snag before chambering, just the same as a semi-auto gun...

If I lived on a farm or ranch, I could certainly see my "go to" gun being a shotgun. Pump even, sure. When you might have to shoot something with 4 legs, or 2 legs, outside, sure, why not.

Inside, though, I do feel like there's better options, especially for someone like me that doesn't get to train & practice as much as we would like.

I can't think of another weapon (that we would reasonably consider for defensive use) that requires more coordinated manipulation, training, and practice than a shotgun, for defensive use.

And that's coming from someone who loves shotguns. (And I'm not really looking for a shotgun vs. AR15 debate either...)

More in the next post. I'm intentionally separating these posts for a reason.

I took a defensive shotgun class once, and you guessed it, the guns/shooters that had the most difficulties were the guys with pumps.. and short shucking. It works well until you're in an odd position and just about any defensive shooting will be an odd position, or have to shoot one handed.

It's also the reason I went back to a semi after using a pump for ducks/geese for years. When I transferred back to KS this last time I was doing way more layout hunting, either boats or field blinds. Using a pump sitting, especially on a hard left to right crossing, was a PITA, and I lost quite a few birds. Switched to a semi (Benelli SBE) and my numbers went up.

AR15 is also much easier to train/practice with. There's a heck of a lot more carbine SD classes offered than shotgun, at least around my area. The carbine is easily adjusted for shooters of smaller stature, less recoil etc. etc. Then there's the "other AR15s" that can be used as trainers:

.22LR


9mm:

 

[C-grunt]

The shotgun remains a popular choice for home defense because of its shear effectiveness at home defense ranges. Commonly used carbines do not match it. That being said, Im firmly in the AR camp due to recoil, ergos, capacity, precision/accuracy, etc..

As far as why pumps are preferred I think comes down to time in use. Good reliable commonly available battle proven semi auto shotguns are a fairly new thing. Even then most were pretty darn expensive. A Benelli M2/M4 were close to 2000 bucks while a good Rem 870 or Moss 500 was less than 500. The Beretta 1301 and now the new Beretta A300 Patrol are changing this in my opinion.

 

[American_Fusilier]

I would absolutely put a light on your AR. Then a red dot sight.