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2 3/4 brass hulls

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by Ironhand54, Apr 4, 2018.

  1. Ironhand54

    Ironhand54 Member

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    Anyone know where I can find 2 3/4" 12 gauge brass hulls?

    IronHand
     
  2. maint1517

    maint1517 member

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  3. maint1517

    maint1517 member

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    My mistake. Those are 2 1/2", not 2 3/4".
    I didn't see it until I checked the link to make sure it worked.
     
  4. Fingers McGee

    Fingers McGee Member

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  5. Curator

    Curator Member

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    A modern plastic or paper 2 3/4 shot shell is actually 2 1/2 inches long before being fired. It is only 2 3/4 inches long after firing as the case mouth unfolds. Most "black-powder era" shotguns had 2 1/2 inch chambers made specifically for 2 1/2 inch all-brass shells. That is one reason they are mostly unsafe to shoot modern shot shells as the case mouth has no place to unfold into when fired, raising pressures significantly. A 2 1/2" all brass shell works fine in a modern "2 3/4" shot shell chamber.
     
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  6. PapaG

    PapaG Member

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    The all brass shells will need 11 gauge wads and will hold a little more shot and powder in the same length. I have 20 old Alcan shells that have been loaded many times. I made a wad wad punch to fit. I also have a couple boxes of those from Midway in each gauge.
     
  7. paul harm

    paul harm Member

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    Sorry Curator but 2 3/4" shells are safe to fire in 2 1/2" chamber guns. A study was done and pressures only raised about 100psi. All my old SxS's were made in the 1800's, many with 2 1/2" chambers and I never bother to measure them, just shoot my own reloads that are 2 3/4". Very few old shotguns have a " step " in the end of the chamber. Those were the ones intended for brass shells. The early shotguns had short - 1/2 to 3/4" forcing cones because fiber wads were used and longer cones wouldn't allow the wads to seal properly. Now a days with plastic wads longer forcing cones - 1 1/2 to 2" are used because the base of a plastic wad expands and seals better. About all you'll mess up is the end of the plastic shell. Magtechs are extruded and Rocky Mountain shells are turned from a solid piece of brass, a good reason for the price difference. I used 10ga OP and OS wads , 11ga cushion wads when reloading Magtechs. I believe the RM shells are thicker and take standard size wads -you'd have to ask when ordering them. RM take a shotgun 209 primer where as Magtechs use a pistol primer.
     
  8. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    +1 (Mega-Dittos)
     
  9. George P

    George P Member

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    A PVC trimmer will cut your basic 2.75 to 2.5 and use a roll crimp

    2-3/4 are NOT safe to fire in 2-1/2" chambered guns, especially older guns as the pressure will increase. In the wrong gun you can go from a POP to a KABOOM; it's YOUR eyes and fingers at risk, not mine
     
  10. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    My grandfather, father, and I have been shooting a 2½" 1928 Model-12 (just one of four) continuously -- hunting, skeet, trap -- about 31,000 rounds to date.

    Shipped it back to Wright's two years ago for a tune-up and asked the question (since the barrel's not marked)
    Yup, 2½" .... and cases (new/reloaded/skeet/turkey/00) have been opening up fine/fully all that time
    No problem... and they ought to know.

    BTW: What do you consider "old" ?
    and are you confusing Damascus with late 90's modern steel ever since?
     
  11. Curator

    Curator Member

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    Paul Harm & MEHavey,
    "Sorry Curator but 2 3/4" shells are safe to fire in 2 1/2" chamber guns. A study was done and pressures only raised about 100psi"

    Thank you for your kind correction. However, it is unwise to say that ALL old 2 1/2 chambered guns are safe to shoot with 2 3/4 shells. I would like to see that study. I have personally inspected several "black powder era" (as I specified and not all damascus barreled) shotguns that burst at the chamber end from shooting modern 2 3/4 shells. Some of these failures included injuries to the shooters. This was a fairly common occurrence in the 50s and early 60s when WWII bring-back shotguns were being fired for the first time by returning GIs. Most shotshells come with the warning to use "only in modern guns with 2 3/4 chambers" for a reason. Your reloads may indeed be safe, and you can certainly do what you want with your own guns. In the interests of safety one should avoid making statements about supposed safety.
     
  12. damoc

    damoc Member

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    I made up some low power BP 12 gauge shot shell from commercial plastic case target loads I used steel shot which would probably make it unsuitable for damascus barrels this was just a experiment for me but seemed to work well.

    https://www.minds.com/media/829388214391873536

    Sorry cant work out how to embed minds video



    youtube will probably pull this.
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2018
  13. paul harm

    paul harm Member

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    I've been shooting 2 3/4" shells in all my guns, many of them Damascus barreled SxS's made in the 1800's. At this time have 15 old SxS's, all of them Damascus barreled except three. Over the years I've probably owned over 40 old SxS's. I have always shot 2 3/4" shells in all of them for the past 15 years. Sherman Bell did a test with Tom Amhurst { sp ?] a while back in Double Gun Journal shooting 2 3/4 in 2 1/2" chamber guns. Pressures rose around 500psi. Tom runs a pressure testing facility. Are all 2 1/2 chamber guns safe - no, not with any ammo. But that's like saying all modern guns are safe. They too have blown up. Pressures raise about 500 and that's a fact. Why those guns you looked at blew up - I don't know but seriously doubt it was from firing 2 3/4 shells in them. Would I fire modern 10,500psi loads in my 100+ year old guns ? Not on a regular basis. I have too much respect for 100 year old stocks and don't like to crack them. Another thought that will raise some hackles - Sherman also tried to blow up 20 wall hangers, all Damascus, with Remington proof loads - 18,500psi. Couldn't do it. He and Tom hand loaded up to 31,000psi before one of the barrels on a Parker let go. The other barrel went at 32,000psi. Am I saying all Damascus barrels are safe - no. Just that they're not so unsafe like many would have us believe. Old nitro loads at the turn of the century were quite high, more so than most people think. And, they were shot in Damascus guns. My loads are in the 8000psi or less range, well within what some Damascus and nitro loads were. When Union Metallic Cartridge Co. began offering factory loaded shotgun shells, circa 1891, they offered 10-gauge shells loaded with as much as 5 drams of powder and 1 1/4 ounce of shot. By the 1893 catalog where the SMOKELESS and TRAP shells loaded with smokeless powders were charted separately from the CLUB black powder shells, the heaviest smokeless powder loads offered were 3 3/4 drams pushing 1 1/4 ounces of shot. For 1905, UMC upped the maximum 10-gauge load in their ARROW shell to 4 drams of bulk smokeless powder pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. The next year UMC upped the maximum 10-gauge load in their ARROW shell again to 4 1/4 drams of bulk smokeless powder (or 34 grains of dense smokeless powder such as Infallible or Ballistite) pushing 1 1/4 ounce of shot. That remained the heaviest smokeless powder 10-gauge load offered until Western Cartridge Co. introduced their high velocity, progressive burning powder, Super-X Super-Ten load of 1 5/8 ounce of shot in 1926. And, most the old SxS's had chambers a 1/8 shorter than the shell. It was thought that it helped seal the pressure better.
     
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  14. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

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    What black powder era guns are we talking about ?
    Anything mid 90's and beyond -- reasonably maintained -- is effectively a modern weapon.
     
  15. paul harm

    paul harm Member

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    My 1873 10ga Remington hammer gun I would consider a " modern weapon " as well as my 82 and 89, but many of my friends don't. They get easily confused with two barrels, hammers, and two triggers.
     
  16. paul harm

    paul harm Member

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    Here's the results of Sherman Bells test
    The test barrel was a ‘heavy’ Krieger barrel with piezo-electric transducer at 1” from the breech and an Oehler velocity gauge 2 5/16” from the breech.
    Tests were performed:
    1. 2 1/2” chamber with a 7/16” forcing cone – “British chamber” (BC)
    2. 2 1/2” chamber with a 1 1/4” forcing cone – “Modified British chamber” (MBC)
    3. 2 3/4” chamber with a 1” forcing cone – “American Chamber” (AC)
    Each load was tested in each chamber at least 5 times.
    No significant change in velocity was noted between the 3 test chambers
    It was not unusual to have 300-600 psi spread between shots

    LOADS
    1. 7/8 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1185 fps in the 2 3/4” chamber
    2. 7/8 oz. in Estate plastic hull at 1206 fps
    3. 1 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1137 fps
    4. 1 1/8 oz. in Federal paper hull at 1120 fps
    5. 1 oz. in Remington plastic hull at 1205 fps
    6. 1 1/8 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1186 fps
    7. 1 1/4 oz. in Federal plastic hull at 1091 fps
    8. 1 1/4 oz. in Winchester plastic hull at 1136 fps
    9. 1 1/8 oz. with GOEX FFFg in Federal paper at 1184 fps
    10. 1 1/8 oz. Bismuth in Federal plastic at 1091 fps
    I only include the standard target or game loads that were tested
    ……..BC……...MBC…....AC…..Difference BCvsAC
    1…..5725…….5905…..4834……891 psi
    2…..6225…….6065…..5009……1216 psi
    3…..5865…….5325…..5263……602 psi…..“long cones do reduce pressure”
    4…..5845…….5665…..5058……787 psi
    5…..7805…….7845…..7577……228 psi
    6…..11,125….11,045…10,787….338 psi
    7…..6892…….6805…..5953……939 psi
    8…..8765…….8545…..7870……895 psi
    9…..5405…….5265…..4603……802 psi
    10…6765…….6365…..6380……385 psi





    Interpretation and caution:
    1. Results in light British 12b or American small bore barrels may be different.
    2. Results in YOUR barrel would require drilling the chamber for the transducer thereby destroying your gun.
    3. Paper hulls with star crimps showed little difference compared to plastic hulls. NO roll crimp paper hulls were tested.
    4. The increase in pressure comparing 1 oz., 1 1/8 oz., and 1 1/4 oz. loads was similar.
    5. Longer cones MAY reduce pressure. This was NOT a comparison of standard 1” with 2 1/2” cones however.
    6. “Shooting 2 3/4” shells in 2 1/2” chambers does make them produce more pressure-but in most cases it is less than a 1000 psi increase. I see no reason, related to safety, to modify an original 2 1/2” chambered gun to shoot 2 3/4” shells, if the 2 3/4” load you intend to use would develop pressure that is safe in that gun, when fired in a standard chamber!”
    7. “We found that lengthening the forcing cone in a 2 1/2” chamber usually helps mitigate the pressure increase that comes from shooting 2 3/4” or 3” shells in the short chamber.”
    8. “Shooting heavy 2 3/4” loads in a light gun is a dumb thing to do. Shooting 3” magnum duck loads is even dumber
    These test were performed by Sherman Bell with assistance of Tom Armburst and published in the Double Gun Journal , winter of 2001. The BC is British 2 1/2" chamber, AC is the American 2 3/4" chamber.
     
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