2,3,4 Die Sets

[film495]

I have an old Herter's Super Model 3. I kind of assume in this type of press, you want as few dies that do as much as possible per die, so you're swapping and setting them less. It seems most pistol dies are sets of 3. Are some two? and is the difference between two die and three die sets the step to bell the case mouth is also done by the sizing die in the 2 die sets?

I'm just looking around to see what is out there. Thinking of setting up for 32 ACP. Also, have a sizer and seater Herter's die set coming for .38 Special, but not sure if that is a complete set - or if I'll also need a die to bell the case mouth?

 

[rfwobbly]

Can't speak directly to Herters dies.

Handgun dies are usually 3-die sets because Belling and Expansion are typically done in a separate die. Bottleneck rifle cases are typically doing the Expansion in the Sizing die, and not doing Belling at all. Handguns use a lot higher percentage of lead bullets which require belling, whereas a high percentage of rifle bullets are boat tail, and require no belling.

 

[film495]

I ordered a 2 die set off ebay that were there Herter's dies for .38 Special. an expansion and a seating die. wondering if I'll need to find the 3rd to the set, don't think they are coming with any instructions/directions, which I don't have and haven't found a copy of, so - trying to fill in the blanks. figured I might end up getting a good new set, but if they work - and I can just add in a 3rd die for belling, is there a universal one I could use for multiple calibers. .32, .38 are what I have in mind, that will need the belling done.

 

[FROGO207]

I have a couple of the old Herters handgun dies.
One die only sizes the brass back down to factory minimum and is not carbide.
Another die pushes the primer out at the same time the neck is belled outward.
The last die is used to seat the bullets and crimp the neck of the round.

A standard (new style) set would consist of
A sizing and decapping die.
A flaring die (Lee has a powder through feature as well.
A seating and crimping die.
For the Lee 4 die set you also get a Factory Crimp die that may or may not be useful.

The better option for you is to buy a Lee 3 or 4 die carbide set. It will come with instructions, a shell holder, and all dies you need. And it will cost less than anyone elses for what you get.

ETA: Rifle/bottlenecked dies are usually only sold as two die sets. The expander die is not included.

 

[FROGO207]

I have purchased many 38 SPL die sets that were non carbide to get the seating die at a great price. Verify that you hav everything but the sizing die and I'll send you one of my non carbide sizers if you want. Any of the older manuals from the 50's will have the instructions for that type of dies. I'll look and see what I have there as well.

 

[FROGO207]

3 die set from RCBS from that time. First die sizing, second die is decap/flare, third die is seating/ crimp.

 

[mdi]

I guess I have to disagree with the OP's premise of needing multi-function dies to lessen die changes. I reloaded on a single stage for about 25+ years and die changes only took less than one minute (I never relied on die rings for maintaining a setting so I checked adjustment every time a die was inserted).

I'm not familiar with many (any) two die handgun die sets, the "standard" being 3 dies; size/decap, flare, seat/crimp (but I quite often use a separate die for crimping, but early on readjusted the seat/crimp die from seating to crimping. I never cared for seating and crimping in one step). Lee adds a "Factory Crimp Die" to their handgun sets which is a subject for another thread.

IIRC all my rifle die sets are 2 die sets, but when getting into high accuracy shooting/reloading some will include more dies; individual precision seating dies, neck only sizing dies with removable inserts, etc.

"Also, have a sizer and seater Herter's die set coming for .38 Special," I'm pretty sure the Herter's press uses standard 7/8x14 thread dies (industry standard) so dedicated Herter's dies are not necessary, sets from any current manufacturer will work, any you will probably be better off with a new carbide die set..

 

[film495]

thanks everyone for the input. I got my Herter's shell holders today - so, that really is the only Herter's piece I needed for the press. I thought the dies would be brand specific, and they were only 10$, so - who knows if those will be a complete set or what condition they will be in.

in the RCBC directions posted above, they do seem to reference a sizing die, that de-caps and also has an expander ball, so - maybe the set I ordered will have that. I don't really see how that would work, but I've never done this so - I'd think if the sizing die had an expander ball, when pulling the cartridge back down and out of the die - I would think the sizing part of the die would just undo whatever the expander ball did, but maybe that is also why most/all pistol dies now are a set of three cause that didn't work very good.

I'll take some pics of what comes in the mail. I also have a Lyman press that can hold several dies - but, I want to figure out the single stage first. I figured with one die at a time, changing them less would be an advantage, but - never did this before so, glad to hear it isn't time consuming to swap out the dies if working with a 3 or 4 die set.

 

[reddog81]

You are correct in thinking that it would be impossible to have a .38 Special did that can size and expand the case mouth. That would have to be some magical die that could do both.

Nowadays the die sets are fairly standardized between the various companies. Sets from 50 years ago can have some oddball combinations and often times do not even include all the items originally included with the set.

FWIW changing out the dies is not the time consuming part of a single stage press. It’s the fact that you have to run the brass through every stage independently. To do 100 rounds of .38 Special it’ll take about 300 pulls of the handle and 300 times putting on and taking off pieces of brass on your press. With a progressive the 100 rounds will require about 100 pulls of the handle and putting each piece of brass on the press only once.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

You need to sit down and read the front of a reloading manual. It will explain in great detail what needs to be done and what you'll need.

 

[Highland Lofts]

Film

Straight walled cases need to be resized, cases flared, bullets seated and I always crimp.
You can crimp with your seater die bu backing off your seater plug and taking the die down a little for making the crimp. I either bought an extra seated die and use it for crimping or just buy a crimp die.

If your resizer is not carbide you will need to lube your cases or your die will get trashed and you will start to get scratches on your cases.
Ask me how I know, been there & done that.



I bought four different colors of nail polish to color code my dies.

For straigh walled handgun dies
1st die, blue is the reiszer die,
2nd die, white is the flare die
3rd die, red is the seater die
4th die is crimp die pinkish color


For rifle dies I color them
1st die resizer is blue
2nd die seater is red
3rd die crimp is pinksh color

I use the Hornady Lock n Load press which the RCBS Rock Chucker and be converted to.
Screw the die in to the bushing, get it set, tighten the lock ring and then a quarter of a turn to take the die out and quarter of a turn to put the set up die back in the press. No more screwing dies all the way in when you want yo use them and all of the way out when you are done then screw the next die all the way in and out and then the next die.

 

[FROGO207]

With a two die set of rifle dies used for bottle necked brass the sizing die sizes the brass down and pushes out the primer in the process. Then on the reverse stroke the neck sizing bushing/ball rises back up through the neck and opens the neck up to get correct neck tension. With a straight walled brass the die cannot do all the things at once. So you have to expand the neck in a different operation after. Those dies I pictured are the same type you described with the decapper inside the neck expander in the same die.When you have that the body sizing die does not need a depriming stem but it could have one and just be redundant. Unfortunately the instructions are a universal set for all types of die sets. Sorry about that as I might have confused you. And I also recommend reading a reloading manual on how to do the process. It should answer some of your questions and act as a reference once you get started. Any other questions just ask and shortly someone will chime in with an answer.

 

[film495]

I broke down and ordered RCBS - 3 die carbide sets for 38 Special and .32 Auto

 

[Highland Lofts]

Smart move Film. You can use the Herters seater die for your crimp die.

Carbide resizing dies don't need any lube,

but I will take the Hornady One Shot spray lube and squirt a little on a few cases once in a while just to ease things a little. Not necessary but I do it once in a while any way.

Make sure you seat your primers all thecway in the primer pockets.
If they are not seated full depth you will get primer stricks but no discharge.

 

[film495]

Herter's dies for .38 Special came today. Cleaned them up a little. Played with the sizer, and in one press - it will de dap, size, and bell the case mouth.
I ran a couple shells through just to see if that is what it would really do, and sure enough - it did.

 

[whughett]

Well that’s a new one on me. My learned something new today for today.

 

[Hondo 60]

Are some two? and is the difference between two die and three die sets the step to bell the case mouth is also done by the sizing die in the 2 die sets?

2 die sets are rifle dies.
1 decaps, & sizes. It does NOT flare the brass.
Those assume you have a separate powder measure.
The 2nd die is for seating the bullet & crimping.

Hand gun die sets are either 3 or 4 dies.
The 1st die does as listed above.
Die 2 flares & charges.
Die 3 seats & crimps.
In 4 die sets the 4th die is for crimping.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

I can't think of any way possible that one die could resize and also flare the case mouth on a straight wall cartridge.

If there is a way, we have all been getting ripped off having to buy all these 3 die sets lol.

I say ain't no way. I've been wrong before though.

 

[film495]

The little fitting on the de cap rod seems to be what bells the mouth. It threads on and holds the de cap rod, which if you wanted could adjust the length of the de cap rod. The sizing ring or whatever is inside the die must stop short of where that fitting bells the mouth, you can feel the case catch and then pop over something when pulling it back out of the die - so, that must be the belled case popping back over the sizing ring; guess that is how it works.

Not sure if it works good, or if it was a good design - but, it appears as designed was supposed to be a 2 die set. Did not come with any directions of course ..

 

[Highland Lofts]

I don't see on the resizer where it would flare the case.

I see the decapping pin and the piece that sizes the inside of the case.
Maybe I'm missing something in the picture.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

I see a bevel on the end of the shank of the seating stem. I wonder if you flare with that possibly?

Anyway, looking at pics on the web of other Herters 38spl dies, I'd say you are missing a die.

 

[film495]

I see a bevel on the end of the shank of the seating stem. I wonder if you flare with that possibly?

Anyway, looking at pics on the web of other Herters 38spl dies, I'd say you are missing a die.

Quite possibly. That's what I'm trying to figure out. I've seen other sets of 3, but the dies look different - they are stamped on the locking rings, and these are stamped on the ends of the die body. It does seem to bell the case on that bevel. I don't know if a bullet will sit down in the case yet, don't have any to work with.

I did find a few threads about old dies that would bell with the sizing die, but - honestly I'm not sure they were talking about pistol or rifle. It sure does seem to bell the mouth on that beveled part of that stem fitting.

 

[Highland Lofts]

Only straight walled cases get beveled.

 

[FROGO207]

Using logic here.
You push the die up inside a sizing die to shrink the diameter to get tension on a bullet.
If the neck was then flared out, say a couple thousandths to help start your bullet how then do you not remove that flare when you remove the brass from the die that just sized it smaller?
Got your calipers yet? Try measuring the brass and comparing to SAAMI measurements. You may be flaring the mouth but I doubt you are sizing the brass down. Just my thoughts. You have new dies coming as well so use them to size a piece of brass and measure that compared to the older dies. You will get things figured out.

 

[film495]

Using logic here.
You push the die up inside a sizing die to shrink the diameter to get tension on a bullet.
If the neck was then flared out, say a couple thousandths to help start your bullet how then do you not remove that flare when you remove the brass from the die that just sized it smaller?
Got your calipers yet? Try measuring the brass and comparing to SAAMI measurements. You may be flaring the mouth but I doubt you are sizing the brass down. Just my thoughts. You have new dies coming as well so use them to size a piece of brass and measure that compared to the older dies. You will get things figured out.

good call. I think I'll do just that later today. happy new year everybody