20'' AR15: Advantages and Manufacturers?

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HGM22

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From reading about the 20'' barrel vs. the 16'', it appears the main advantages are increased sight radius and velocity. Velocity, in turn, increases long distance accuracy by giving the bullet less time to get blown around. Are there any other advantages? Are 400-600 yard shots do-able with irons? Doesn't the Marine Corps qualify at 500 yards (if so, are they using 62gr ammo?)?

I like the Colt A4 but it is a little pricey. Stag makes an A2 but I'd really prefer a 1:7 twist. Anyone else make a 20'' A2 or A4 AR, preferably with 1:7 twist (uppers ok; I can always build the lower)?

Finally, what are the differences between the A2 and A4?
 
The A2 has a fixed carry handle/ rear sight assembly (the sight is still adjustable), the A4 has a removable carry handle with a standard rail underneath. Often A4 rifles come without the carry handle/ rear sight assembly since many people just want to put optics on.
 
You're describing an AR15 used in high power service rifle competition, in which targets are shot as far away as 600 yards.

There are/were service rifle uppers for sale in the link below (you may have to register). The used one (#2) just sold, but #1 is new, and uses a premium barrel. A very good upper. Get yourself a good sling to go with it (2nd link).

Upper:
http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25591

Sling:
http://www.usrifleteams.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=25542


You could also get a RRA NM upper. It's got a 1:8 twist, but use your Google Fu, and I think you'll find that it's a popular upper and does well at longer distances too.
http://www.rockriverarms.com/index....tegory_id=268&CFID=354318998&CFTOKEN=15821784
 
If I'm not mistaken the rifle length recoil system ie: buffer, spring, and tube offer a little more travel over the carbine length. That in turn gives a different slightly softer recoil impulse. While it may not matter for slow fire it can be an advantage during rapid fire.
 
Yes, all Marines qualify on the range, which includes firing 10 rounds prone at 500 yards. This is with a 20" barrel, iron sights using M193 55 grain rounds.
I have a 16" and a 20" AR both of which use A2 iron sights and the 20" consistently shoots tighter groups using either 55 or 62 grain bullets.
Hope that helps.
 
Yes, all Marines qualify on the range, which includes firing 10 rounds prone at 500 yards. This is with a 20" barrel, iron sights using M193 55 grain rounds.

Not anymore. It's RCO's, ACOG's to non-Marines, and M885 62 grain rounds. But it is just as easy to shoot accurately with iron sight on a range in daylight as with the scope at least for me.
 
Not anymore. It's RCO's, ACOG's to non-Marines, and M885 62 grain rounds. But it is just as easy to shoot accurately with iron sight on a range in daylight as with the scope at least for me.
You don't have old fart eyes. With my 50 yr old eyes both the rear and front iron sights are hazy blurs, but with optic everything is tack sharp.
 
Check out the RRA Predator Pursuit upper. It uses the same 20" barrel that they use on their NM builds. It's a 1/8 twist, which should still stabilize pretty heavy/long bullets.
 
The extra sight radius of the 20" rifle really helps with iron sight shooting. Also the higher velocity keeps standard FMJ surplus ammo over the velocity at which it fragments on impact with soft tissue out to 300m or so, whereas a 16" barrel drops under that threshold around 175m.

Do you want more of a target rifle that will be shot from stationary positions, or more of a Second Amendment purpose rifle that will be carried in the field? If you're going more target style, White Oak Armory is well known for making very accurate Service Rifle uppers that NRA High Power shooters use for competitions out to 600 yards. They use a 1/8 twist stainless barrel, which works for stabilizing the heavier rounds just as well as the military 1/7 twist.

If you're looking for more of a 2A purpose rifle, PSA sells 20" uppers (when they are in stock), as does BCM. Those are the two I would recommend. Both sell barrels that are 1/7 twist, chrome lined, high pressure tested and magnetic particle inspected, as per the mil specs. Also both sell them with the "gov't profile" barrels, which are a lot lighter weight and easier to carry than the HBARs that target type rifles usually come with. BCM costs more, but they are usually in stock unlike PSA.

I have a PSA 20" rifle, and it has been fantastic. I have shot it out to 500 yards with irons co-witnessed through an Aimpoint, using 55 grain M193, and it holds under torso-sized groups. Just a few weeks ago I shot it in a cross country run 'n gun competition that included a 500 yard stage, and I cleared it with no problem. That has become my favorite rifle in my collection. Here I am with her before the Run 'n Gun:

photo_zpsec57dfde.jpg
 
You don't have old fart eyes. With my 50 yr old eyes both the rear and front iron sights are hazy blurs, but with optic everything is tack sharp.
That's true but I do have 20/100 uncorrected vision in my shooting eye. Honestly for me it was the reticle that the Marine Corps scopes use. It was just way to busy to shoot accurately at first, after my third time qualifying with it I did shoot better though. Give me a standard scope reticle any day.
 
The rifle gas system is the most reliable. Though, carbine gas M4s can go thousands of rounds between cleanings if you keep them lubed.

Increased sight radius is moot if a) you are using an optic or b) you just mount a long FF hand guard and irons on that.

Velocity, the jump from 18-20" can be as little as 25fps. 16-20" seems to average 150-200fps. I had no problem hitting a 12" gong at 500yds with my 14.5" though in a 5-7mph wind.

Personally, I don't think the extra length and weight of a 20" is worth it for a for a little bit of velocity.
 
I have a PSA Dissapator (16" barrel with rifle length handgaurds), and it shoots great out to 540 yards using a detachable DPMS A2 sight. That is with 55 grain m193. It will not push to 600 yards consistently unless I use 69 grain bullets or 77 grain bullets.
I have rifle length sight radius, but the 16" barrel does limit the effect accuracy in the .223.

The 20" barrel helps for longer shots, and it aids in the yawing of bullets at longer distances due to the higher velocity. I like my dissy, but a 20" A2 is a fine rifle, and is IMO a better all around choice.
I also thought I needed a 1:7 twist, but I think my 20" with a 1:9 twist and 55 grain bullets pretty much was the best combination for the AR 15. Again. JMO. Everyone has one.
I wouldn't give up my PSA Dissy with the hammer forged FN barrel though. It is accurate to 540 yards consistently, but I rarely shoot over 300 yards now, and the heavy bullets really hit hard at that distance.
 
Thanks for the replies guys. I'd like the rifle as a home defense/range gun. I'd stress reliability over accuracy.

I'm thinking it might be cheapest to build a rifle. Does anyone know how much the BCM A4 or PSA rifles/uppers cost? These places do not put their prices on out of stock rifles online.
 
I think you are looking at $170ish form complete lower, trigger assembly with 6 position stock or A2 stock, and the anywhere from $399 to $720 for then complete upper assembly. Depending if you get an A2 or A3 depends on if you will have to buy an rear sight or optics, and then you have to purchase magazines.

I am a hue fan of A2 sights. I only recently acquired an Am point as a gift. I like simple for a defensive/offensive rifle, and the AR system with plain irons provides that. No batteries doesn't get knocked out of adjustment. I am not a mall ninja. I just think an rifle fornthesenourposes should be simple. I also like single stage triggers. Nothing fancy. A 4 to 6 pounds is perfect.
And for home defense a pencil barrel is fine. Some people may disagree, but I will get a pic of my AR up for you to get what I have in mind, and what works for me.

For all intents and purposes a S&W Sporter or DPMS Sporter might fill the role. And a Colt 6920 would definitely fill the role. Just depends on how deep you want to reach into you pocket.
 
Another advantage I'd note is recoil reduction. Granted AR-15 type weapons don't have much recoil to begin with, I've noticed (personally) that rifles with the full length gas system have less perceived recoil than the mid-length and carbine length gas systems.
 
If you want it for range use get a 20. I'm a huge fan of 18" and mid lefty gas systems. Seems to run smoother to me. I have two that I built from parts that are 18" and I like shooting them over my bushmaster xm15 20".
One of my 18" builds with a oly k8 target match
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I like the oly more than the bushmaster too. It's a 1-9 twist instead of 1-7
 
if you're going to do service rifle competition, check out White Oak Precision.
 
In am with you, nastynatesfish. I believe I liked my Colt 1:9 better than the 1:7 I have now. Live and learn.

As I mentioned here is my PSA Dissapator. You can see the rifle length hand guards, and it has an M4 hammer forged FN barrel with a 1 in 7 twist rate. The gun shoots awesome, and is very accurate to 540 yards with 55 and 62 grain ammo. To push it to 600 I have to use heavier bullets to be more consistent, but like I said I don't shoot much past 300 any longer. This also has a mid length gas system. Not a carbine length gas system. As I also mentioned. I am with the KISS folks. Although there is an Aimpoint sitting around somewhere now that was a gift to me.

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Very nice rifle Eb1. I have always liked the dissy setup... I almost did one of those instead of my 20" build. I like long sight radius, and I like having the front sight taper pinned to the barrel, instead of floating independently of the barreled action like a lot of people have theirs. I also had a MOE handguard on mine originally, though I later replaced it with a free float handguard as you can see in my earlier pic.. The reason for the free float was to eliminate POI shifts between shooting with a sling, unsupported, rested, monopodded, etc., which it absolutely did. I also went with a collapsible stock, mainly for weight reduction and because I wanted side-mount sling sockets for my run 'n gun sling. Back when I built this, they hadn't released the Magpul fixed rifle stock, which has side swivels -- I might switch out for one of those. Cheek weld isn't great on the carbine tube, and I pretty much always keep the stock set at A2 length anyway.

If you like shooting with irons, you might want to try the same kind of setup I have with my Aimpoint -- have it co-witnessed with your irons. The irons are still fully useable right through the tube of the Aimpoint, but you gain a lot of low light and close quarters capabilities. These are especially important if you are using the rifle for home defense or as a fighting rifle. There is no disputing that a red dot is faster than irons up close, and much easier to use in the dark. Plus an Aimpoint doesn't add very much weight... my rifle is only about 7.5 lbs. as pictured. Aimpoints are extremely tough and do not get easily knocked out of adjustment. I don't know what model you were given, but the newer ones have a battery life measured in years with it on constantly. Even if the batteries do die or it gets damaged, you are no worse off than your original iron sight setup. There aren't really any drawbacks to mounting the Aimpoint, the way I see it.
 
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Thanks. My Aimpoint is co-witnessed. I just don't have it on the rifle for this pic. The Aimpoint is nice, and I like it. It works well with NV, and your right, they are not very heavy. I just like shooting via irons. It helps keep me in a reality state of mind. Whatever I put on top of that front sight gets hit. I find that if I shoot with a dot or a scope all the time I seem to get to critical of my shooting, and loose a lot of natural ability to point shoot. Which I find is very easy and very accurate with the peep sights on the AR 15 if you are use to that kind of shooting. Now put me behind some buck horns and I get all dizzy. I cannot see up close without glasses or contacts, and even then something about having to focus on the rear and front sight makes me dizzy, and I don't shoot very accurately with that sighting system.

I like a fixed stock versus a 6 position stock. As I mentioned the A2 is my favorite design. I like the standard A2 20" rifles the best, but always wanted a dissy. So I have one now. I can't find the short bayonets though. I know they made them at one time. I also don't find that a free float tube really makes any difference out to 300 yards even if I am shooting prone, standing, or with a sling. At least not with my rifle.
If I were competing in High Power again I'd have a Colt A2 HBAR 1:7 twist or a WOA Service Upper with a 4# single stage trigger. I like the single stage triggers better on AR 15s. Two Stage triggers just don't feel right on an AR 15 to me. JMO.

I'd not sell my PSA Dissy with MOE rifle length hand guards and FN HF barrel, but I do hate that I sold my old Post Ban Colt HBAR. That rifle was the absolute most accurate rifle I have owned. I didn't hand load then, and with Black Hills 55 grain Soft Points it would shoot the entire magazine into a dime at 100 yards, and around a 50 cent piece at 200 from a bench, and that was using an A3 carry handle. Miss that rifle so much....
 
I'll raise an issue I didn't see anybody else bring up: the 20" is more pleasant to shoot. the extra 4" of barrel allows the powder to finish burning up so there is much less muzzle blast.

I picked up a psa premium upper for 385 shipped with bolt group and charging handle over thanksgiving. I think they typically run about $100 more, but you could get this one http://palmettostatearmory.com/inde...ped-upper-without-bcg-or-charging-handle.html for 300 shipped, and add a chanrging handle for 20 and a bolt for 100. I don't know if you can do better for less.
 
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