200gr Keith .45ACP bullet - who knows anything?

[Someguy.429421]

Hello everybody. I've lurked on these forums for years but now I finally have a question that a Google search has yet to really satisfy. In my reading I have found a picture of E. K. holding a smallish SWC that is described as a 200gr .45ACP bullet of his design. Does anyone know anything about this, a source for bullets or even perhaps a mold, or even some history or anecdotes? I know he was a fan of the 1911 as an automatic and it would not surprise me if he put his talents towards tweaking/optimizing the cartridge for that particular arm. I am aware of the D&L semiwadcutter and I am intrigued by it, but obviously this is not the one Keith himself had.

If it's true and it feeds well, two big if's- could it be loaded to 1000fps safely in a magnum research 1911GI?

Aside- does anyone know how to replicate a .44 special skeeter load in .45ACP? That is, 250ish grain keith at 950fps while also maintaining standard pressure.

I apologize for multiple questions but to me they are related somewhat.

Thank you for your consideration.

 

[reddog81]

The bullet looks like it’s either an H&G 68 or something close.

Hodgdon’s online loading guide has a number of loads that show a 200 grain SWC going 1,000 FPS or more.

 

[Someguy.429421]

I can't truly say without measuring, and this is based only on the pictures, but it appears that if you aren't completely spot about that bullet then perhaps the H&G is a bit longer and narrower on the nose and meplat than the one pictured.

Thank you for your reply.

 

[fxvr5]

It's a little hard to see the 200 g bullet in that picture, but it does look like the generic SWC bullet, i.e. the nose does not look unusually wide.

Matt's bullets has a pretty good variety of 45 shapes, including the generic 200 SWC. They can easily make 1000 fps.

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=71

Getting a 250 grain to hit 950 fps will be a little more difficult within standard pressure limits. You might be able to do it with Enforcer.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/fast-loads-for-the-45-acp/99214

Matt's also has a bullet for that, the 250 grain short nose Keith.

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=305

 

[lightman]

The bullet in His hand looks like a H&G 68 or one of the clones. They shoot well and usually feed reliably. I have safely loaded 200 grain bullets to 1000 fps but not much over. Don't let the numbers influence you too much. Nothing that you shoot will know the difference between 990 fps and 1010 fps.

 

[Texas10mm]

RCBS 201 KT. The mold is no longer available. Since I cast up some yesterday and am going to do more today I'll take some pictures. Also the Lyman 452630, which is almost identical to the RCBS but has a bevel base.

Both these bullets have a longer nose than a 68. I've got an H&G 68 mold too.

I kind of collect and use 200 gr .45 ACP SWC molds.

 

[reddog81]

I can't truly say without measuring, and this is based only on the pictures, but it appears that if you aren't completely spot about that bullet then perhaps the H&G is a bit longer and narrower on the nose and meplat than the one pictured.

Thank you for your reply.

It's pretty hard to tell based on those pictures but doing a little research does seem like RCBS 201 KT is a likely suspect. If you're wanting to use a 200 grain SWC I wouldn't get too hung up on the exact dimension of the mold. You could buy 6 different H&G 68 molds and they'd all be slightly different.

NOE sells an H&G 130 clone that has a shorter wider nose.

 

[cheygriz]

I shot many thousands of these bullets in Bullseye competition. They're excellent.

 

[lightman]

RCBS 201 KT. The mold is no longer available. Since I cast up some yesterday and am going to do more today I'll take some pictures. Also the Lyman 452630, which is almost identical to the RCBS but has a bevel base.

Both these bullets have a longer nose than a 68. I've got an H&G 68 mold too.

I kind of collect and use 200 gr .45 ACP SWC molds.

I didn't know this mold had been discontinued. I would have thought it to be a big seller.

 

[Texas10mm]

It was dropped last year. They still have the 201-SWC but it's a different profile. I have both molds so I have personally verified this.

 

[Texas10mm]

Ok, here's the pictures.



H&G 68 on the left, RCBS 45-201 in the middle and the RCBS 45-201 KT on the right.



Top view of the same bullets.



Lyman 452630 on the left and the KT on the right. You can see the bevel base on the Lyman. Also notice that the nose is not as rounded.

I've shot all but the 452630. If it ever quits raining and dries out I'll get to the range and shoot that one. The other three I've shot extensively. I really prefer the KT. So much so that I'm melting down my stash of 68s and recasting them. Sadly I only have a two cavity KT and the 68 is a four cavity.

 

[cheygriz]

I used the Lymans. Near perfect bullet.

If you can find an eight cavity Hensleyand Gibbs 68 that you can afford, BUY IT!!!!

 

[Rock185]

That photo with EK, looks like the H&G 68 type bullet to me too. I used to shoot the H&G type, cast by some outfit I don't recall now. I did get cast and jacketed 200 grainers to 1000 FPS without any issues, but don't honestly now if pressures would have been standard or +P. I found that with the SWC, seating depth was critically important for reliable function, about .020" to long or too short was a No Go. I worked out an OAL with the H&G 68 type that worked reliably in my guns, but been too long, can't recall it now.

 

[PapaG]

Doesn't fit the true description of a Keith bullet. Driving bands of equal width, deep square grease groove. Good bullet. I shoot a lot of .452460 in the ACP but also shoot the RCBS 45-255KT and it is way better at pins, varmints and Bambi.

 

[Rod47]

Elmer did design a .45AR bullet which Lyman produced. Thinking bullet in pic might have been Modern-Bond, Cramer, or Lachmiller mould.

 

[Texas10mm]

I used the Lymans. Near perfect bullet.

If you can find an eight cavity Hensleyand Gibbs 68 that you can afford, BUY IT!!!!

https://mp-molds.com/e-shop/molds/solid-molds/mp-452-200-swc-pb-hg-68-6-cav

I'll put a MP up against a HG any day.

 

[Texas10mm]

Doesn't fit the true description of a Keith bullet. Driving bands of equal width, deep square grease groove. Good bullet. I shoot a lot of .452460 in the ACP but also shoot the RCBS 45-255KT and it is way better at pins, varmints and Bambi.

That was for the .44 and you'll find damn few that actually match that description. The .45 ACP doesn't need a deep square grease groove.

 

[MEHavey]

http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-200H-D.png

As close as you'll ever need

 

[PapaG]

That was for the .44 and you'll find damn few that actually match that description. The .45 ACP doesn't need a deep square grease groove.

Agree but a semi wadcutter doesn't mean Keith.

 

[PapaG]

View attachment 818981 View attachment 818982 Hello everybody. I've lurked on these forums for years but now I finally have a question that a Google search has yet to really satisfy. In my reading I have found a picture of E. K. holding a smallish SWC that is described as a 200gr .45ACP bullet of his design. Does anyone know anything about this, a source for bullets or even perhaps a mold, or even some history or anecdotes? I know he was a fan of the 1911 as an automatic and it would not surprise me if he put his talents towards tweaking/optimizing the cartridge for that particular arm. I am aware of the D&L semiwadcutter and I am intrigued by it, but obviously this is not the one Keith himself had.

If it's true and it feeds well, two big if's- could it be loaded to 1000fps safely in a magnum research 1911GI?

Aside- does anyone know how to replicate a .44 special skeeter load in .45ACP? That is, 250ish grain keith at 950fps while also maintaining standard pressure.

I apologize for multiple questions but to me they are related somewhat.

Thank you for your consideration.

I use the RCBS 45-255KT sized to .452 and 5.5 grains of Unique, seat so that about 1/16" of the front shoulder protrudes from the case,taper crimp as last step. FWIW this load has won me a pile of money in bowling pin shoots, will go through about eight inches of dry pine, and has penetrated side to side of the chest of a medium sized deer.
My Skeeter load is just like his only I go down to 7 grains of Unique. Can't tell difference in performance but much nicer in both my 624 and my Flattop.

 

[PapaG]

That was for the .44 and you'll find damn few that actually match that description. The .45 ACP doesn't need a deep square grease groove.

True but if you look at the OP pictures the Keith bullets shown all meet the criteria about driving bands and have much more blunt nose profiles.

 

[Jim Watson]

Sure looks like a real auto SWC in the left picture. In Keith's day, it probably WAS a H&G.
Trivia, the H&G #68 was designed by a Mr Crawford.

 

[Texas10mm]

Lyman 452423 is a 238 gr Keith type SWC. I don't have that mold but I do have the 452490 which is a 255 gr SWC. I'll get some pics in the next day or so.

 

[fxvr5]

Lyman 452423 is a 238 gr Keith type SWC. I don't have that mold but I do have the 452490 which is a 255 gr SWC. I'll get some pics in the next day or so.

You mean like this? http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=290

 

[Texas10mm]

Here's a thumper. NOE 238 gr HP. I cast these with the cup point pin and they are coming in at 245 gr. Driving bands are close to the same size and it has the deep square lube groove.