2011 Michigan Bill to Eliminate Pistol-Free Zones

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January 13, Richard LeBlanc, Democrat, District 18, introduced a number of bills, including HB 4009. Concisely, 4009 would eliminate pistol free zones for CPL holders by repealing MCL 28.425o. That bill was assigned to the Judiciary Committee.

This is going nowhere without support, and lots of it. If you MI residents would like to do something, the following is the list of Judiciary Committee members. In addition to your own Rep, if they are not on the Judiciary, these would be very good people to contact and express support for this bill. Similar bills have been introduced previously and went no where. The same will be said for this bill if everyone does nothing.




In addition, I spoke to one of Rep. Walsh’s legislative aids to discuss 4009 and 4010. 4010 essentially is cleanup of some felony/criminal procedure stuff related to removing PFZ’s. I could not get anything out of him on Rep. Walsh’s opinion of or plan for these bills. It is early though, so that does not bother me. I also asked about the townhall meetings that Walsh holds every 3rd Friday of the month in his district. I am not in his district, but he indicated I am more than welcome to attend to discuss the issue FTF.

Who wants to attend the meeting? I plan on attending. The following is the meeting location and time.

Civic Park Senior
15218 Farmington Road
Livonia, MI 48154
January 21, 2011
1100-1200

I want to get cracking on this. I think it important to start hitting this from every angle to convince our legislators and the executive branch that there is considerable support for these bills.
 
A bit more from Scott Webb, the president of Michigan Open Carry:

We are asking everyone to please call or write as many representatives as you can. If you are able to we ask that you coordinate your calls or emails to take place on January 20, 2011. Through coordinating our efforts we can send a clear message that we want our right to self defense to be allowed everywhere possible. This bill would mark a huge milestone for firearm rights in Michigan. The opportunity we have been waiting for is here. It is up to us to take advantage of it.

Please forward this to everyone you know who supports the rights guaranteed by the Michigan Constitution, Article 1 Section 6, and the 2nd Amendment of the United States Constitution.

--
Sincerely,

Scott Webb
President - Michigan Open Carry, Inc.
 
There is now an online petition for passage of HB 4009 and 4010. This petition will be submitted to all members of the Michigan State Legislature and to the Governor. I urge Michigan residents only to sign this petition and send the link to other Michigan residents.

http://www.petitiononline.com/MIHB4009/petition.html

I do not believe an online petition is even remotely as important as calling legislator’s offices or speaking with them face to face, though. Please support the petition IN ADDITION to contacting your reps directly and fostering grass roots support. Please discuss this issue with others likely to support this, assisting them if necessary in contacting our legislators. Thank you.
 
I believe there are 200k - 300k CPL holders in MI. 650 sucks.
 
Getting the word out is key. It's safe to say that any CPL holder would be willing to sign it, so that means they probably just don't know about it. And at this time yesterday there were only 60. Plus, I think politicians are smart enough to realize that anytime a concerned citizen contacts them about anything, he/she probably represents many more who are like-minded.
 
We're over 1200 on the petition now :)

Bigger question: do petitions like this online have that much of an impact? I think I will be writing the Judiciary committee personally.
 
BluEyes said:
do petitions like this online have that much of an impact?
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Probably not as much as taking the time to contact your rep directly, but 1200 people looks a lot more impressive than just a few.

In the light of the recent happenings in AZ, I doubt anything will come of this, but here's to hoping common sense prevails anyway!
 
The CPL PFZ elimination legislation will be discussed on Off the Record Friday, February 11. Senator Mike Green, sponsor of SB 57 & 58, the Senate versions of HB 4010 and 4009 respectively, will be the guest. The program should be available online ~noon Friday, and should be televised two or three times over the weekend. Michigan residents, check your local PBS station for television listings.
 
Just signed the petition, over 2600. There's a few of classmates I've talked to who would like to see this legislation passed, perhaps I can organize more than a couple actual letters written to our reps.
 
Why don't they just enact "crime free zones" and not worry about law abiding CPL holders? If they would make the entire state a "crime free zone" they could save millions on now spent law enforcement, courts and jails. Why can't they just make crime illegal?
 
Owen Sparks said:
Why don't they just enact "crime free zones" and not worry about law abiding CPL holders? If they would make the entire state a "crime free zone" they could save millions on now spent law enforcement, courts and jails. Why can't they just make crime illegal?
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As sound as your logic is, sadly the masses don't get it. I'm doubtful this will pass, but at least it brings the conversation out in the open.
 
ok, so wait a minute, isn't eliminating PFZs a good thing? Passing HB4009 and SB58 is a good thing for CPL holders and gun owners in general. Or maybe the language of the law has me confused.
A Democrat sponsored HB4009 and a Republican sponsored SB58, identical bills in a largely gun friendly state with a huge Republican base in state government... why would this have difficulty passing?
 
USAF_Vet said:
...identical bills in a largely gun friendly state with a huge Republican base in state government... why would this have difficulty passing?
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Because Republican or not, they do listen to their constituents, and there are a lot of irrational people who are against it. But I sure hope you're right!
 
USAF_Vet said:
ok, so wait a minute, isn't eliminating PFZs a good thing? Passing HB4009 and SB58 is a good thing for CPL holders and gun owners in general. Or maybe the language of the law has me confused.
A Democrat sponsored HB4009 and a Republican sponsored SB58, identical bills in a largely gun friendly state with a huge Republican base in state government... why would this have difficulty passing?
Click to expand...
“Good” is subjective. “Republican” does not necessarily mean pro-RKBA. “Democrat” does not necessarily mean anti- RKBA. There obviously is and has been considerable opposition to the intent of this legislation, as concealed pistol license (CPL) “shall issue” became effective July 2001. There has been essentially no movement on elimination of CPL PFZ’s in almost 10 years. We have a huge culture of dependency in MI, as elsewhere. When people refuse to take responsibility for their own lives and that of their dependents, you are not going to find a huge clamor for true freedom. IMO, personal responsibility and freedom are intrinsically tied together. I believe laws that restrict freedom, in this case those that prohibit conceal carry of a tool for personal protection in PFZ’s, are a symptom of a deeper problem. My point is, getting this legislation passed is not a simple affair. That being said, previously, the chairperson of our House Judiciary Committee was a staunch opponent of the RKBA. He is now the minority vice chair. I have absolutely no idea how supportive the new chair will be though. I have talked to his staff a few times, and I have gotten nothing concrete from them either way.
 
There are pro-RKBA politicians from both major parties. The more comfortable with firearms the voting public is in a given state, the more comfortable the politicians from either major party tend to be in that state. You can find anti politicians in FL (or here in TN), but they're comparatively rare regardless of affiliation as opposed to states with a population that has little gunsports activity in the general population.

Since no piece of legislation is guaranteed and every piece of legislation may have some fatal flaw to keep it from passing, without vocal public support a minor glitch can derail an overall good piece of legislation. Read the proposed legislation, discuss it amongst the voters, discuss it with the politicians and make sure they understand what you support in the proposed legislation.
 
HSO said:
............Since no piece of legislation is guaranteed and every piece of legislation may have some fatal flaw to keep it from passing, without vocal public support a minor glitch can derail an overall good piece of legislation. Read the proposed legislation, discuss it amongst the voters, discuss it with the politicians and make sure they understand what you support in the proposed legislation.
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I agree. Summary: stay informed and involved in the process. I think signing a petition is the about the lowest, least helpful form of involvement.
 
Everything I have heard so far points to these bills being scheduled for committee hearings “later” in the year, if at all. Governor Snyder had made it perfectly clear the budget is Priority 1, 2, and 3, and I do not necessarily disagree. The situation is very bad. IMO, that does not mean we do nothing now concerning concealed pistol license (CPL), pistol free zone (PFZ) elimination. As HSO stated, take the time to actually read the bills. Familiarize yourself with the process, at least as far as it reads on paper.

How does a Bill become a Law?

How Committees Work

The relevant bills this session for PFZ CPL elimination are SB 57, SB 58, HB 4009, and HB 4010. SB stands for Senate Bill. HB stands for House Bill. In this case, SB 57 and HB 4010 are identical; same for SB 58 and HB 4009. When you read the bills, understand text to be added to Michigan Compiled Laws (MCL) is in bold, and text to be eliminated is struck through. Essentially, SB 58 and HB 4009 would repeal MCL 28.425o, “Premises on which carrying concealed weapon prohibited; “premises” defined; exceptions to subsection (1); violation; penalties.” SB 57 and HB 4010 would remove text from MCL that lists and classifies the felony specified in MCL 28.425o for carrying concealed in a PFZ.

The PFZ list in 28.425o contains the following.

  • A school or school property….
  • A public or private child care center or day care center, public or private child caring institution, or public or private child placing agency.
  • A sports arena or stadium.
  • A bar or tavern licensed under the Michigan liquor control code of 1998, 1998 PA 58, MCL 436.1101 to 436.2303, where the primary source of income of the business is the sale of alcoholic liquor by the glass and consumed on the premises……
  • Any property or facility owned or operated by a church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship, unless the presiding official or officials of the church, synagogue, mosque, temple, or other place of worship permit the carrying of concealed pistol on that property or facility.
  • An entertainment facility with a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals that the individual knows or should know has a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals or that has a sign above each public entrance stating in letters not less than 1-inch high a seating capacity of 2,500 or more individuals.
  • A hospital.
  • A dormitory or classroom of a community college, college, or university.

Notice that casinos are not included. Casinos are a PFZ, but the text addressing them is found elsewhere in MCL. They are not addressed by this legislation. Private property could still be posted as weapon/gun/pistol/firearm free zones, with a penalty of trespass. Furthermore, this proposed legislation does not repeal the prohibition of general firearm possession by non-CPL holders in the locations specified in MCL 750.234d, “Possession of firearm on certain premises prohibited; applicability; violation as misdemeanor; penalty.” This is an entirely different firearm free zone list that existed prior to MI becoming “shall issue” for CPL’s in July 2001. This list would remain under the proposed legislation. It does not apply to CPL holders, though. This list contains the following locations.

  • A depository financial institution or a subsidiary or affiliate of a depository financial institution.
  • A church or other house of religious worship.
  • A court.
  • A theatre.
  • A sports arena.
  • A day care center.
  • A hospital.
  • An establishment licensed under the Michigan liquor control act, Act No. 8 of the Public Acts of the Extra Session of 1933, being sections 436.1 to 436.58 of the Michigan Compiled Laws.

Please consider this very important fact. 28.425o, which creates the CPL PFZ’s, only applies to concealed carry of a pistol. The exact text is this: “shall not carry a concealed pistol on the premises…..” It does not prohibit the open carry of firearms in those locations by those who possess a CPL. Some people are using this information in their arguments for elimination of the CPL PFZ’s.

Finally, ponder these statistics. Michigan has an estimated population of ~10 million, but only ~250000 (1/4 million) CPL holders. CPL holders are a minority. Most of the MI population does not understand this issue well. You, the person reading this post may or may not be all that familiar with concealed carry, concealed pistol licensing, or the issue of PFZ’s. Education and recruitment of new “political activists” will be necessary if this legislation is to become law. If you have any concerns about the wisdom of this proposed legislation, feel free to contact me through this forum. I would love to discuss the issue in detail with you. If you understand and support the legislation, please reach out to others in an attempt to enlist their support. There is no major effort currently organized by any of the major pro-RKBA groups to move this legislation forward as it is still early. Until then though, we can lay the groundwork for a powerful movement of support by educating ourselves and others. Thanks.
 
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Sent to my state senator and representative on 1/27/2011.

Dear Senator Meekhof and Representative Agema,

It is my understanding these bills are still in committee. I would like
to see them move out of committee and be supported by my senator and
representative.

I am not a CPL holder at the moment, but a firearm owner who plans on
acquiring a CPL this year.

People with concealed weapon permits are already law abiding citizens
and are less likely than the general public to commit violent offenses
than the general public. The creation of so called pistol or gun free
zones violates the intent of second amendment.

For a person intent on committing a crime with a firearm a gun free zone
is not likely to dissuade them from their actions. In fact a gun free
zone ensures that law abiding citizens will be severely out-gunned
defending themselves in such a situation.

In addition, a person who arrives at a gun free zone must leave their
carry weapon in their vehicle unattended. While the weapon may be
secured in the vehicle there is still a chance that the weapon could be
stolen. A gun worn concealed on their person is much more secure than a
weapon in an unattended vehicle in a parking lot at a school, stadium,
or hospital.
Click to expand...

I received a response today from my representative.

Dear Mr. Day,

I greatly appreciate you taking the time to write to me and I am in full agreement with you. I will be supporting these bills when they reach the floor. I will personally be fighting to defend every person's right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the state. I also agree that "pistol free zones" are handicaps on law abiding citizens limiting their defenses and attracting individuals who act outside of the law.

Thank you again for writing and bringing this issue to my attention. If you have any further questions or concerns, feel free to contact me.

Sincerely,

Dave Agema
State Representative
74th District
Click to expand...
 
It isn't that they have a difficult time passing it - republican party leadership refuse to let it out of committee because rolling back gun control laws isn't part of their agenda. All indicators are that if they bring it to the floor, it will pass.
 
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