.22 magnum according to Bill Jordan
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pbearperry
Member
I had the great fortune to meet and speak with Bill Jordan years ago at the Police Combat Championship match in Jackson Miss.I had my pic taken with him and at 5'8" I look like a midget.If I could figure out how to post pics I would.If anyone would like to see it send me your email addy.
[email protected]
[email protected]
MCgunner
Member
Yes, you're right, my bad. Got my old gun writers mixed up.
Yeah, Jordan was the K frame magnum guy, N frames are a PITA to carry all day. He deserves his fame if only for the model 19 combat magnum. Good point about a guy such as Jordan being able to better employ a minimal caliber under stress than the average guy with no combat experience. I hope I can go through life with out that experience, but I'll carry a real fighting caliber at least as primary in the interim. I suppose, in the context of back up, the rimfire makes a lot more sense than as a primary. I'll give ol' Bill that much. He's not touting it for primary if the OP is correct. Hopefully, in any scenario, if you need the BUG, you'll have reached cover.......hopefully. And, after a few shots are fired at the perp, 99 percent chance, especially if you're behind cover, he's lookin' to get the HELL outta there, too.
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
I agree with my friend, the late Mr. Bill Jordan; as I see the .22 magnum
as a useful caliber. Maybe not in this day and age for self-defense; but
rather as a small game hunting caliber. I own a regular North American
.22 Magnum MS with 1-1/8" barrel; as well as a 6.5" Ruger Super Single
Six Convertible in stainless steel, that I picked up for a measley $200.
The NAA .22 magnum MS is an up-close and personal (nostril gun) for
use when using anytime teller machines after hours in complete darkness.
as a useful caliber. Maybe not in this day and age for self-defense; but
rather as a small game hunting caliber. I own a regular North American
.22 Magnum MS with 1-1/8" barrel; as well as a 6.5" Ruger Super Single
Six Convertible in stainless steel, that I picked up for a measley $200.
The NAA .22 magnum MS is an up-close and personal (nostril gun) for
use when using anytime teller machines after hours in complete darkness.
MCgunner
Member
"Nostril gun". I like that one. LOL
2ndamd
Member
Listen, when you're as fast as Bill Jordan with a gun you could use a BB gun and be deadly.
I am too slow and will stick with the snubby .357s.
I don't think the baby magnums were out yet when Bill was writing about the 22 mag?
I miss Bill Jordan!
I am too slow and will stick with the snubby .357s.
I don't think the baby magnums were out yet when Bill was writing about the 22 mag?
I miss Bill Jordan!
Confederate
Member
Although this thread is aimed at the .22 mag, we're also touching on the .22LR as well. As much as I like centerfire ammo, in the real world, there's still a nitch for the rimfires. Sure quality control is an issue, but if you buy good quality .22LR, it shouldn't be much of one. Like many people, I buy really cheap stuff for plinking, and I've seen my share of duds, but then, I'm not betting my life on the stuff.
If we ever suffer a breakdown in social order in this country, the .22LR will be a commodity that probably can be used as money. Think of how many people in this county have guns, then how many have more than about a box or so of ammo for it.
The .22 mag should be more popular than it is, but many people don't want to pay the extra money. I'd also think that .22 mag autoloading pistols are likely much less reliable.
Next time I go to Wal*Mart, I want to pick up a bunch of .22 mags for my Ruger Single-Six.
If we ever suffer a breakdown in social order in this country, the .22LR will be a commodity that probably can be used as money. Think of how many people in this county have guns, then how many have more than about a box or so of ammo for it.
The .22 mag should be more popular than it is, but many people don't want to pay the extra money. I'd also think that .22 mag autoloading pistols are likely much less reliable.
Next time I go to Wal*Mart, I want to pick up a bunch of .22 mags for my Ruger Single-Six.
sm
member
I am on record as being a proponent of .22 lr and .22 magnum, shot placement, the breakdown of society and .22 ctgs being used as currency, respect for Bill Jordan and other gun fighters.
I have stopped threats with the .22 lr, and this includes the threat were three adult males that stated verbal intent and had weapons. I am no Bill Jordan, still I do have my elephants and own them.
We have an aging society, and folks seem to think they will always be young, hip, slick and cool.
We have physically limited folks, some temporary and some permanently limited.
See I grew up with Veterans of previous conflicts, and Polio Victims.
As I continued to get bigger, we had more Veterans from Vietnam, other conflicts since, and currently we are in conflicts.
i.e Marine, injured with neck and back injuries, and under Doctors Orders, No Recoil.
He is restricted to .22 handguns.
Updated to being able to use a .410, under extreme situations, in a heavier shotgun.
Screw the macho BS, fire off a round with recoil and one is paralyzed, or that detached retina is now ruined and blindness might be the result.
In the blink of an eye, one can be down and physically limited, temporary or permanent.
All I can share are my experiences and observations having lived as long as I have.
That is all any of us can really share.
Having been in the main OR, were we attended to GSWs and we also did Organ Harvests, I can share, when it is your time to go, you go.
When it ain't it ain't.
.22 short, long, long rifle, and magnum have been the reasons we did Organ Harvests.
12 ga slugs, 00 buckshot, 45ACP, 9mm, and other calibers and folks have lived...including, the fellow that stuck a 4" .357 revolver in his mouth and tripped trigger on a .357 loading.
Internet is a medium of faster communications, allowing both experiences and observations, and parroting macho BS to be in with the right group of the week.
I have stopped threats with the .22 lr, and this includes the threat were three adult males that stated verbal intent and had weapons. I am no Bill Jordan, still I do have my elephants and own them.
We have an aging society, and folks seem to think they will always be young, hip, slick and cool.
We have physically limited folks, some temporary and some permanently limited.
See I grew up with Veterans of previous conflicts, and Polio Victims.
As I continued to get bigger, we had more Veterans from Vietnam, other conflicts since, and currently we are in conflicts.
i.e Marine, injured with neck and back injuries, and under Doctors Orders, No Recoil.
He is restricted to .22 handguns.
Updated to being able to use a .410, under extreme situations, in a heavier shotgun.
Screw the macho BS, fire off a round with recoil and one is paralyzed, or that detached retina is now ruined and blindness might be the result.
In the blink of an eye, one can be down and physically limited, temporary or permanent.
All I can share are my experiences and observations having lived as long as I have.
That is all any of us can really share.
Having been in the main OR, were we attended to GSWs and we also did Organ Harvests, I can share, when it is your time to go, you go.
When it ain't it ain't.
.22 short, long, long rifle, and magnum have been the reasons we did Organ Harvests.
12 ga slugs, 00 buckshot, 45ACP, 9mm, and other calibers and folks have lived...including, the fellow that stuck a 4" .357 revolver in his mouth and tripped trigger on a .357 loading.
Internet is a medium of faster communications, allowing both experiences and observations, and parroting macho BS to be in with the right group of the week.
DrLaw
Member
I've read that passage over and over in NO SECOND PLACE WINNER by Jordan. I think, and of course, this is assumption only, that he was thinking of a real nifty hideout gun that would be lightweight and very easy to control.
Remember that nobody thought the .223 would ever stack up to the .30-06 in military usage, as they also thought the 9mm was not the match of the .45ACP.
Jordan was a guy who knew how to use his guns, who was on front lines of the border wars, and who practiced a lot. He could probably use a .22 magnum lightweight with skill far and above that of mortal man - to paraphrase the Superman line.
That is my guess on it.
The Doc is out now.
Remember that nobody thought the .223 would ever stack up to the .30-06 in military usage, as they also thought the 9mm was not the match of the .45ACP.
Jordan was a guy who knew how to use his guns, who was on front lines of the border wars, and who practiced a lot. He could probably use a .22 magnum lightweight with skill far and above that of mortal man - to paraphrase the Superman line.
That is my guess on it.
The Doc is out now.
Gordon
Member
I've been looking for an S&W non collector 650 for years without luck!
The .22mag has just enough more umph to ensure it gets thru the outside layers to the interior organs on humans or livestock unlike the the very iffy .22lr. BTW even the old High Standard derringers could be counted on to do this too!
I slaughter animals with a .22WRM, I carry a .45 for defense mostly!
The .22mag has just enough more umph to ensure it gets thru the outside layers to the interior organs on humans or livestock unlike the the very iffy .22lr. BTW even the old High Standard derringers could be counted on to do this too!
I slaughter animals with a .22WRM, I carry a .45 for defense mostly!
MCgunner
Member
.22 mag does have an advantage other than ballistics on the LR. It does not use a heal loaded bullet. With .22LR, I find that if my NAA rides in my sweaty pocket too long, I'll get duds. The .22 mag should be more moisture resistant and, generally, the ammo is better primed than bargain shelf .22LR.
seeker_two
Member
Also, .22mag bullets tended to be better-made (JHP's, FMJ's) than .22lr bullets (soft lead or copper-washed). Jordan may have considered this fact as well....
351 WINCHESTER
Member
I have a lot of respect for the .22mag. It's downloaded nowdays, but from a 4" revolver it's still darn good. It may not expand, but it's sure gonna penetrate.
conrad carter
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I snapped on a like new 651-1 a couple weeks ago and am pretty happy with it. No lock stainless, 2" bbl, adjustable rear sight and the orange plastic insert in the front sight. Now I had to fork out 700 bucks but it is a nice little piece.
22 mag ammo now is running 2250fps+.
stainless, 2" bbl, adjustable rear sight and the orange plastic insert in the front sight. Now I had to fork out 700 bucks but it is a nice little piece.22 mag ammo now is running 2250fps+.
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Confederate
Member
Here's the photo.pbearperry said:
Grizzly Adams
Member
I too am an proponent of the 22s and think the 22 mag. can be a very deadly and useful round. As sm said shot placement is important, but when isn't it?
And I sure wouldn't argue with Bill Jordan about that or any other issue! I sure miss old Bill and Skeeter!
And I sure wouldn't argue with Bill Jordan about that or any other issue! I sure miss old Bill and Skeeter!
conrad carter
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Dang, I'd give up just looking at him.
Piedmont Plinker
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Wow, I kinda look like old Bill.
I suppose that's one thing I have going for me.
How tall was he?
I suppose that's one thing I have going for me.
How tall was he?
I remember reading Mr. Jordan's view of the 22 mag. several years ago, & instantly recalled my first encounter with this round.
When I was a teen in the 70's my dad came home with a cheap single action revolver with both cylinders (ala Ruger convertible). 4 5/8 bbl.
One day I'm plinking at the gate post behind my grandfathers barn. More to the point, I'm shooting at a large steel strap hinge holding the gate on the post.
While the 22LR. would leave a very faint white dimple on the steel hinge, imagine my shock when I then put cylinder full of 22 mag. clean through from about 20 to 25 yds.
Being a user & fan of the 35 Rem. rifle cartridge, I often read posts by other owners, stating that it kills all out of proportion to it's paper ballistics.
I guess I kind of veiw the 22 mag. in sorta the same way.
I currently have a 5 1/2 in. Ruger s.six convertible, & yes, it is loud.
Oh, & quality control does seem better on the mag. than on the L.R. ammo. Cant remember the last 22 mag. dud round I encounterd.
When I was a teen in the 70's my dad came home with a cheap single action revolver with both cylinders (ala Ruger convertible). 4 5/8 bbl.
One day I'm plinking at the gate post behind my grandfathers barn. More to the point, I'm shooting at a large steel strap hinge holding the gate on the post.
While the 22LR. would leave a very faint white dimple on the steel hinge, imagine my shock when I then put cylinder full of 22 mag. clean through from about 20 to 25 yds.
Being a user & fan of the 35 Rem. rifle cartridge, I often read posts by other owners, stating that it kills all out of proportion to it's paper ballistics.
I guess I kind of veiw the 22 mag. in sorta the same way.
I currently have a 5 1/2 in. Ruger s.six convertible, & yes, it is loud.
Oh, & quality control does seem better on the mag. than on the L.R. ammo. Cant remember the last 22 mag. dud round I encounterd.
Warren
Member
15 rounds out of trio of these might be able to get you out all sorts of trouble.
Loaded the total weight would be around 19 ounces but spread out over your frame.
Four would be about 26 ounces and 20 rounds of 22 mag should be able to handle anything short of a bear.
I'm thinking I might buy a couple as "last ditch" holdouts.
Loaded the total weight would be around 19 ounces but spread out over your frame.
Four would be about 26 ounces and 20 rounds of 22 mag should be able to handle anything short of a bear.
I'm thinking I might buy a couple as "last ditch" holdouts.
I think he mentioned the .22 Magnum since high performance .22 l.r. ammo, like Stigers, weren't available yet.
.22 Mags could be had as JHP and the muzzle flash is much more impressive than the results that they show on the chronograph.
.22 Mags could be had as JHP and the muzzle flash is much more impressive than the results that they show on the chronograph.
tipoc
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Below is the entirety of what Jordan had to say on this subject in his book. It comes in a section where he is discussing calibers and the weight and size of guns for carry. The chapter on "Calibers and Loads" pg. 77-78. He discusses matching the size of the gun to the task at hand and compares recoil of the .38 Spl., .357 and .44. He discusses the K frmae vs. N frame guns. He makes the point that light weight guns make good backup guns but that recoil and controllability can be lost if caliber is not taken into consideration. He makes the point that "plenty of recoil absorbing weight is a necessity to comfort and accuracy", with the bigger 44 and 45 rounds.
" The one light loading that I would like to see would be the airweight model Cobras and Chief Specials chambered for the new .22 RF Magnum load. This is a wicked little cartridge and would add little to the weight of the light models (5 .38 Special cartridges weigh about as much as the Chief Airweight), and would make a wonderful addition to the "hide out" field, particularly for officers working in hot countries where usually a coat is not worn during the hot summer months."
He goes on to discuss guns and weight a bit. Says such a lightweight gun could be carried in a pocket. Mentions some of the challenges S&W was facing chambering the .22 mag in an alloy framed gun, and then goes on to other topics.
Alloy framed revolvers were still a fairly new deal when Jordan wrote this. No lightweight guns were chambered in .357. S&W was having problems controlling the flame cutting of the top strap with the .22 mag.
So Jordan does not say that the .22 mag is better than a .32, .380, .38 Spl or any other round. He says just what he says. That it would make a useful back up or hideout gun, light weight with controllable recoil. IIRC somewhere else in the book he does state that the .22 mag can make a heck of a vicious wound. He was not recommending it over other calibers in airweight guns cuz it did not exist yet in any airweight guns. He's giving the concept of it consideration and encouragement.
tipoc
" The one light loading that I would like to see would be the airweight model Cobras and Chief Specials chambered for the new .22 RF Magnum load. This is a wicked little cartridge and would add little to the weight of the light models (5 .38 Special cartridges weigh about as much as the Chief Airweight), and would make a wonderful addition to the "hide out" field, particularly for officers working in hot countries where usually a coat is not worn during the hot summer months."
He goes on to discuss guns and weight a bit. Says such a lightweight gun could be carried in a pocket. Mentions some of the challenges S&W was facing chambering the .22 mag in an alloy framed gun, and then goes on to other topics.
Alloy framed revolvers were still a fairly new deal when Jordan wrote this. No lightweight guns were chambered in .357. S&W was having problems controlling the flame cutting of the top strap with the .22 mag.
So Jordan does not say that the .22 mag is better than a .32, .380, .38 Spl or any other round. He says just what he says. That it would make a useful back up or hideout gun, light weight with controllable recoil. IIRC somewhere else in the book he does state that the .22 mag can make a heck of a vicious wound. He was not recommending it over other calibers in airweight guns cuz it did not exist yet in any airweight guns. He's giving the concept of it consideration and encouragement.
tipoc
johnnylaw53
Member
tipoc
You got it right i went back and read his book and he was just saying it would make a nice addition as they did not make it yet years later S&W came out with a sub in 22 mag. years ago I got a NAA mini in 22lr went with that instead of the mag due to price of the rounds. I can't say i felt well armed with it but it beat nothing which is what I began having with me after I sold my old Mod 60 which would ride in my boot. So the little mini was as least something that i could use if i had to if a dope deal went bad of course my real back up were the 3+ cover officers which were of course armed much better then me.
Be safe
You got it right i went back and read his book and he was just saying it would make a nice addition as they did not make it yet years later S&W came out with a sub in 22 mag. years ago I got a NAA mini in 22lr went with that instead of the mag due to price of the rounds. I can't say i felt well armed with it but it beat nothing which is what I began having with me after I sold my old Mod 60 which would ride in my boot. So the little mini was as least something that i could use if i had to if a dope deal went bad of course my real back up were the 3+ cover officers which were of course armed much better then me.
Be safe
Rex B
Member
I often carry a NAA Black Widow with the magnum cylinder. I load it with the hottest loads I can find, generally CCI TNTs or the V-Max (?). While I think the round has good enough power even from the 2" barrel, the side effect of all that flash, unburnt powder, and loud report has some value in changing the intentions of the party on the receiving end. I think of it as a hot piece pf lead wrapped in a flash-bang grenade.
That being said, my normal carry is a .380 - Keltec, Llama, American Arms Escort. The .22Mag is carried around the house or yard, or when I am wearing real light clothes.
I would prefer the NAA revolver were a double-action, even if it were slightly bigger.
That being said, my normal carry is a .380 - Keltec, Llama, American Arms Escort. The .22Mag is carried around the house or yard, or when I am wearing real light clothes.
I would prefer the NAA revolver were a double-action, even if it were slightly bigger.
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