22 Magnum: HP or Solid for Self Defense?

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Dang dawg, how big are you?!?
As I said, 12 inches of ballistics gel is not the same as 12 inches of human torso. Ballistics gel is much easier for the bullet to move through. 12 inches in ballistics gel is the FBI's minimum. 18 is preferable.

I guarantee you that a round that penetrates exactly 12 inches of ballistics gel will penetrate less through a human body.

Instead of mocking, maybe you could answer the question the first time around......
Try shooting at a moving target and you'll notice that not only is it difficult to track and aim for a small target like the face/neck, a person who is moving is not perfectly square to your vision.
 
Then perhaps you could cite a reasonable example that addresses the question I asked:

"If you can't see their face/neck or even head, why do they require the immediate application of deadly force?"

Instead of mocking, maybe you could answer the question the first time around......

Seriously?

They could be behind cover. Their face/neck could be in a shadow. They could be wearing a helmet with a face/neck shield. They could be the headless horseman. :neener:

You cannot plan for every possible situation in which a person could pose a deadly threat. It's naive to assume that you would only need to apply deadly force in situation where your opponent's face/neck is a reasonable target. Just like it's naive to assume that you'll only need to apply deadly force in situations where 3 inches of penetration is adequate.

Alas, we're getting off topic here.

As for the OP's question, I think either HP or FMJ would penetrate enough from a .22mag. From the little bit of data I've been able to find (haven't looked too hard) it looks like you would only get an extra inch or two from a FMJ. You can expect around 11" from the HP (in gel) depending on the load. You might as well go with the HP as you might get some expansion too.
 
Once again, if you cannot see his neck/face or HEAD (which I previously stated and was ignored) then why are you shooting him? The examples given either conveniently jump past the moment deadly force is required or cite a moment before deadly force is justified.

The OP framed his question about using the .22 magnum as a home defense gun.

The .22 magnum will penetrate MORE than 3-4", so most of this is moot anyway.

While one cannot plan for every possible situation (only fools would try) one can plan for the most likely. Helmets with face/neck shields notwithstanding. :rolleyes: However, it would be most likely that I could see the badguy's face/neck/head in the typical home defense scenario.

Is it an easy target? Nope, but the smaller you go in power, the more precise you need to be.

Of course, the chest/pelvis are viable targets as well. 4" penetration on most people would make it to their heart.

I'd still go with expanding bullets in the .22 magnum, even if they penetrated less.

But, since the OP states he owns bigger caliber guns, it would make the most sense to use one of those instead of trying to make a .22 magnum do the job.
 
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Not all threats will be face on, and static.


Many trainers and instructors also use three dimensional targets , and moving targers such as NTI, and Awerbuck is known for his "unique" targets.

Hence the reason I was raised to shoot moving and three dimensional target presentations, beginning at a very very early age.

-VCAs do use cover, whether intentional or not- the reality is, one may not have full view of face, neck, or head.
Intent is expressed by verbal, and non verbal language, and one might have to stop a threat that is "obscured" , by cover, and have to shoot the best target presentation.

i.e. BG is shooting at you from out and around behind your fridge. Your best shot might be VCA knee, or foot, that is exposed. If the threat continues, and VCA steps out, and at angle - still moving- one shoots to stop threat, and this might now mean a bullet has to get past arm, to enter thorax from a an angle.

Same thing if VCA is using the breakfast bar, that is part of kitchen cabinet and decor, if they are shooting at you from down, around and from the side of that breakfast bar.

[I prefer slugs for shotguns, so with a slug, I could punch through that bar, through pots, pans and whatever else is kept in that cabinet area, and get to VCA.
FMJ 45ACP, or 9mm, even standard pressure 158 gr, .38spl LSWC will to , based on my actually having done so.]


VCA using the shrub near a carport for concealment and you arrive home ( bringing in groceries for instance), and now the shrub becomes cover against you,

Bullets deflect, they all do.
Rifle bullets deflect hitting twigs and deer are missed.
Awerbuck has shared 12 ga slugs being deflected off the brim of a ball cap, worn by a VCA target.

IME, solids deflect less when shooting glass.
I have tested this, over and over again, with various media, including glass.

Threat might be on the other side of glass Eterge', or glass "knick-knack" display you have in the home, or business.
It might be the decorative glass door in the home, which leads into main dining room, etc.


True.

One of the Set Ups (ya'll call these stages) I did ~ 30 years ago, was based on a real event.


Nineteen year old female, stepped onto a icy porch to get the paper and in breaking her fall, broke her strong side arm ,and hurt her wrist. In getting up, she went down again, and her knee required surgery.

There she was in a recliner of the day, after getting home from the hospital, and in a bad way.

Well, we had elderly folks, with arthritis and some had it so bad, they were under NO RECOIL orders. Osteo so bad, they could no longer drive, even being a passenger was a "concern".
IF they shut the car door too hard, or the trunk, they could break a back.
So getting into a minor fender bender, was a concern for their health as a passenger.
My aunt had Osteo so bad, she stepped out of bed one morning , and broke her foot.

This nineteen year old, fell asleep in the recliner, and did not know her dad had come in early from work and was putting a knick-knack in the display mom had.
It scared the nineteen year old.

Other elderly folks had expressed the same concerns - "risk for falls".
Risk for falls is not an age thing.

One couple had known me forever and about ten years ago-

One of my elderly couples had a serious situation. Husband was brought home after out patient knee surgery. She got him home, he got into his recliner.
His wife left to get his meds, and some food from a a mom-n-pop grocery store that did prepared foods. They wanted her to come get some food, already cooked, so she would not have to cook for a couple of days. Just how mom-n-pop stores are with customers they have known forever.

She was attacked in her carport, as she arrived home. She was targeted at the drug store, and tailed, and then followed home. She unlocked the door off carport, and brought in one box, went back out and BGs were using her car for cover, and attacked her.
Knocked her down...she did not break anything, just some bruises and small cuts...

Husband is just home from surgery and still a bit under the anesthesia, and he cannot get up , and if he could what could he do? Thank goodness the bad guys just stole her car, her purse, the meds, and food and took off, without coming inside to where he was.
(He normally pocket carried a J frame, just he thought he would be best not too, just coming back from being under anesthesia...and ....)

So going back since I was wittle, mentors did set ups, so it was only natural for me to do one based off that Nineteen year old and her situation.
Only natural I would do a carport attack one...

So the set up I did some 30 years ago due to the 19 year old female incident, and concerns of elderly-

Set Up.

-Strong hand and arm are disabled. We used a temp cast, and mitt.
-Recliner, kicked back.
-.22 cal handguns, due to NO RECOIL orders such as a Doctor and Physical Therapist do impose.
Handguns were snub nose revolvers, in because these are small, easy to conceal, and therefore one can have on person, even in the home.

VCA was a moving, target filled with dirt. A scarecrow, if you will, behind glass "knick-knack" display cabinet, (eterge') with plastic toys to replicate knick knacks, on glass shelves. This thing was between five and six feet tall and about 18 inches square.

NO start buzzer. We rarely did start buzzers, instead we used starts such as gunshots, screams, doors being busted into, glass breaking, and the like.
Reality, as there are no start buzzers in real life.

I prefer standard pressure, 40 gr, lead round nose.
If I cannot have that, then a 40 gr high velocity.

Now a variety of loads of the day were used...
Since that time I have replicated this same set up, for assisting folks with more modern loadings.
I vary it a bit...

Some loads are designed to "scatter on impact" , and they "scoot" out of a bore really darn fast, even faster than hi-velocity ( hyper velocity).

Investigate & Verify.

I have, lots of times over the decades, and it might surprise folks of some of the results.


Get a piece of the most simple, plain vanilla glass, like from a window pane.
An old window with panes are best, instead of loose panes.

Now shoot a target from 7 yards.
Repeat with this glass anywhere from 12 inches, to further away from that target ( glass closer to you).

Repeat at longer distances, if you have a glass interior door in the home, replicate the setting, such as where you would shooting from, and where threats would be.

I got one for you.
No secret , I am not a fan of low recoil buckshot loads for shotguns, especially one brand.
a. That load deflected something awful shooting through a interior glass door.
b. That "rubber ball" in that loading will come back at you, and hurt you.
The ball hit one of the cross sections were glass panes are held in, and bounced back with authority.

A standard pressure, 40 gr lead round nose, fired from a Beretta Bobcat, grouped right nice, through that door.

[easy door we made , to replace glass easy and fast, for this teaching and assisting tool for new shooters and CCW folks.]


Investigate & Verify.
 
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The head is key. Please note that you do not need to see his face or the front of his head or neck in order to shoot it.

If he's running laterally and you are justified in shooting, then shoot the side of his head/neck.

If his back is to you, but deadly force is still justified, shoot him in the back of his head/neck.

If for some reason his head/neck is invisible to you, aim for his chest and/or pelvis from front or back.

If he is behind you and you do not see him at all, then it doesn't matter what gun you have.

If he's 100% behind cover and still requires deadly force, you're pushing your luck, especially with a .22 magnum.

If he's behind glass wearing a helmet with a face/neck shield while running laterally and deadly force is justified......well, I think I read that comic book too....

I'm not defending the .22 magnum, as there are many calibers better suited for defense. But if I had to use or recommend one, I'd load it with JHP's or other expanding bullet and practice my face/neck/head shots with it.
 
Ah so maybe, what we need to do is to take preventative steps so we do not get to the point where we need to defend against a threat with a handgun,or any firearm, no matter what platform, brand, make, caliber, gauge or ammunition type ?

*wink*
 
sm, I've never seen anybody work so hard to miss a point so simple.

:wink:
 
well, with such a small diameter projectile, i would personaly want a hollow point. my reasoning is this. if you hit a human where there is only soft flesh, a fmj bullet may penetrate all the way through. the problem with that in a home is that the bullet may continue on into a loved one, which is serious bad news. even if it only breaks the skin of your loved one, just think about all the blood born diseases that could be spread. stay with expanding rounds in your home, keep the bullet(s) in the bad guy, and keep your loved ones safe!
 
The head is key.

While a headshot would usually stop a threat faster than a shot to the torso, it is naive to plan on being able to pull off a headshot in a SD situation. If you're not confident that you can effectively stop a threat without a headshot with a given caliber, it's time to seriously consider a different caliber.

Training/planning to pull off a headshot in a SD situation may not work out for you.

:D

That said, no one wants to get shot with a .22 mag anywhere!
 
I'm the original poster. Just responding to those who question how/why my 22 magnum would be my backup if it's for home defense. The answer is, I keep my Beretta and shotguns locked up (when I'm not home) downstairs in my den, while the 22 magnum is typically stored either upstairs in the bedroom or maybe in my car if I'm going to the range soon. So, in "backup", I don't mean I've been in a gun fight and I'm out of ammo or otherwise have lost the use of my other weapons. I simply mean that, possibly my other guns are someplace else, and it's the 22 magnum that I or my wife can get our hands on. In that case, will I want HP or Solids?
 
I say HP. I bet, if this thread were a poll, that the majority would agree.
 
I simply mean that, possibly my other guns are someplace else, and it's the 22 magnum that I or my wife can get our hands on.

That's a choice you can make in advance. You can easily choose a centerfire handgun instead, so why don't you? It's silly to willingly select a rimfire handgun for defense when there are better choices available to you.

In that case, will I want HP or Solids?

Hollowpoints, be it rimfire or centerfire.
 
.22 HP's probly wont expand at handgun velocities, but the squared shoulders of a HP do much more damage (even unexpanded) than a round nose FMJ.
 
Just throwing this out there...
tip_backround.jpg


A little birdie told me these should be available in America later this year.
 
As an EMT on an ACLS rig in Charleston, SC I have seen a 22lr out of an NAA mini kill a man with one shot to the sternum slightly left of center. He was escaping with his wife from a biker bar being chased by 3 or 4 occupants of same bar. One was an off duty PO.
Byond I need some of that ammo! TY!
 
And your point ?

I think we can agree that any caliber CAN kill with one shot, but how many can be relied upon?
 
Back in "58" as a teenager on our farm I bought a Mossberg .22 mag single shot rifle for pest control. About the only rd.s you could get then were solids.One day I done a test with a gallon can that once had pesticide in it.I filled this metal can with water,sealed the lid and shot at it from about 50 yds.away. The can jumped about 10 ft.,in the air with water flying out,and when I picked it up the ends were bulged out and the seams that sealed the can were all torn open. I'm sure some of the rounds made today could be even more effective as a defence round.;)
 
David E. A person who tries to kill me with a gun would likely not try to expose their vitals. When i was young there was a driveby in front of a house where i was, and the person next to me got killed. Noone ever saw any part of the shooters body except the hands holding the guns. These were uzis.
 
And a .22 magnum against a drive-by is a poor choice.

My point was, and is, unless the shooter is holding his gun around or above cover, (making his hit potential minimal) his head will be visible to you, either the front, side or back of it.

Is the head a viable target? Absolutely. Is it an easy one to hit? Absolutely not.

The smaller you go in power, the more precise you need to be in placement. If you're using an under powered caliber, then proper placement is essential.

Most people would encounter the badguy face on, as in a mugging. If I had a mousegun caliber, I'd go for face/neck/throat shots instead of the standard center mass.
 
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