Why use HP or SP for self defense?

[Cosmoline]

Overpenetration concerns aside, is there any reason to use HP or SP handgun bullets? I understand their utility with rifles, where the enormous power of the round pushes the bullet through even after it expands. But with 9x19, .38 Specials, .45 ACP's and other standard handgun cartridges the bullet's SD and low power means that in most cases the HP or SP acts as an air brake, preventing complete penetration.

Now I understand you might want this specifically to prevent too much penetration, but that issue aside is there any tactical advantage? Obviously, a bullet that has stopped is no longer tearing tissue.

 

[clipse]

They cause more tissue damage and dump most of the energy into the BG as well.

clipse

 

[Hkmp5sd]

In addition to more actual tissue damage, by stopping in the body, the bullet expends 100% of its energy into the body, maximizing the total amount of damage.

 

[Third_Rail]

When I start carrying concealed (3 years) I'll be carrying FMJ rounds. Why? Because I'd rather have the penetration than expansion.

 

[Cosmoline]

That's a good point, but OTOH the amount of damage done is also limited since the bullet stops moving. It does more at the front end, less at the back. I suppose the key there might be to get a round with enough power to get to the core of the target. If it doesn't, it may stop short of vital organs.

 

[Sean Smith]

Why use HP or SP for self defense?

Bigger hole.

 

[clubsoda22]

When I start carrying concealed (3 years) I'll be carrying FMJ rounds. Why? Because I'd rather have the penetration than expansion.

So, what you're saying is that the ranger talons in my 9mm that penetrate 14" of gelatin and expand to .70 don't have enough penetration? The Ranger .45's penetrating 15"+ of gelating and expanding to nearly .8 don't have enough penetration? I think what you're looking at is OVER-penetration.

 

[Third_Rail]

I want something that will penetrate without expanding. I want to be able to hit a target in the CNS without worrying that a .38 spl will simply flower on the outside.

 

[otomik]

basically you're saying why would i want 1 hole when i can have 2?
well i think you're correct if you're talking about .380 or smaller rounds where there is a question of adequite penetration (the 12'' minimum). but in your standard service pistol cartridges there is no trade off (unless you hit bone) it's more like would you like 2 holes in the case of FMJ or 1 hole and 1 chasm of an exit wound with any good choice of expanding bullet.

 

[Third_Rail]

Two holes, thanks.

 

[gunfan]

The difference is...

In a single phrase... destroying vital organs and internal desanguination.


The object of the hollow point's "agressive" nature, is the "pulping" of vital internal organs, as well as the desired and drastic drop in volumetric blood pressure. This causes the rapid onset of hypotension, resulting in lack of conciousness, thus "stopping the fight."

Internal bleeding has taken the life (though often not as quickly as desired) of many a gunshot victim. The rapidly expanding attributes of the semi-jacketed, lead hollow point or even fully-jacketed hollow point increases the odds of this phenomenon exponentially. This is if (and only if) the projectile expands within design perameters.

Scott

 

[rich2u]

I just read a very large article in Guns & Ammo Their annual handguns edition. It was about the old argument of hollowpoints vs Ball ammo. Very informative & very definit in their findings. Hollowpoints are the way to go. Its based on Evan Marshall a detroit cop who gathered data from over 30,000 shooting &140 different calibres. Its pretty conclusive... Let the games begin

 

[rich2u]

Of course as gunfan will probably tell you if you use a 10mm hollowpoint you get the hole going in & a really big hole on the other side Go 10mm.

 

[Third_Rail]

I still would prefer FMJ. I'm used to firing a rifle with FMJ rounds. I want penetration, I prefer it. I don't want to hit a BG in the chest with a JHP, that's a bit too... unsavory. I'd rather a "clean" kill by hitting the BG in the CNS.

 

[gunfan]

One must remember that the military uses FMJ to simply inflict wounds, rather than to kill. This places a burden on the wounded soldier's comrades to render aid, lessening the efficacity of their forces. (Read: it takes two men to carrry a wounded solldier from the field. These me can't fight while so occupied!) This is fundamental milatary logistics. (1st year of OCS.)

Scott

 

[Sean Smith]

Two holes, thanks

Um, stop and think a minute. There is only one hole. It is just a question of how wide and deep it is.

I don't want to hit a BG in the chest with a JHP, that's a bit too... unsavory.

That's a bizarre sentiment. Realistically, we are talking about killing here, not a night at the opera. The whole damn thing is "unsavory."

One must remember that the military uses FMJ to simply inflict wounds, rather than to kill.

Myth. The military uses FMJ because that's what our interpretation of the Hague Conventions indicates is LEGAL to use under the international law of war. That whole "wound vs. kill" busness is pure b.s., the Army that I was a part of taught soldiers how to kill the enemy, not merely inconvenience him.

 

[Ivy Mike]

The expanding bullets have demonstrated time and time again their superiority in wounding people. When dealing with relatively weak handgun rounds, expansion is more important, mainly because the more it expands, the more tissue it damages. With a rifle round, the higher velocity causes the bullet to do interesting things in a body. Things like yaw and fragment, which, in turn causes a larger permanent wound cavity. "Energy Transfer," isn't important at all. Then again, the small, low velocity bullets from handguns don't pack much energy anyway, so in handgun calibers, energy transfer is pointless.

please read up on Dr. Martin Fackler's excellent findings at http://www.firearmstactical.com

this article is an excellent look at wounding balistics of handgun rounds and the fallacies of things like "shock of impact " (AKA energy transfer) and "knock down power."

 

[R.H. Lee]

"Do not put your faith in expanding bullets"

-Jeff Cooper

 

[arinvolvo]

Sean, our two hole friend is explaining the merit of an FMJ round that has passed through its target...leaving an entry AND exit wound...

 

[Third_Rail]

That's right. I really don't mind overpenetration... even though I should.

 

[duckfoot]

A fact that can not be denied, putting a bullet in in a bad guys eye is better than putting one in his butt.

















Good shot placement with a, JHP, SP, FMJ, RN, SWC, WC, AP, HEI, FMJT, or HPBT will get the job done.

 

[Ivy Mike]

the problems with using FMJ rounds are as follows.
1. The bullet doesn't stop in the target, puting others at greater risk.
2. The bullet stays the same size all the way through, never making the permanent wound cavity any larger. You may miss vital structures.

Now, why you would want to endanger innocents is beyond me. Firing a bullet is a risky proposition even with the best expanding ammo. Firing an FMJ round of large enough caliber is asking for trouble. You aren't aiming at a 320 pound elk with huge bones. You are aiming at a person. Expanding ammo was designed to work in humans, let it do it's job. Hell, even if it doesn't expand completely, you still have a solid bullet of sorts that will expand some and give the required penetration.
Expansion is what you want and extremely credible and knowledgeable sources like Dr. Fackler are more than enough to convince the majority of PD's around the country of this. Do yourselves a favor, carry expanding ammo. If you won't do it for yourself, do it for the child that may be standing behing the person your blowing holes through.

 

[para.2]

Riley mc said:"Do not put your faith in expanding bullets"

-Jeff Cooper

That was probably true when the good colonel said it. Projectile technology has taken several quantum leaps since then. Most, if not all, modern premium hollowpoints will expand in tissue at handgun velocities.

 

[copaup]

You know, people who shoot for a living seem to have a little trouble making that CNS hit under stress...

I've seen lots of people shot. I've seen them shot with FMJ, JHP, shotguns, rifles, and once with a compound bow (way more destructive than you'd think incidently). Granted, both hits with JHP and FMJ in the upper torso tend to be fatal, but it seems that those I've seen shot with FMJ have been a good bit more lively when I got there.

This isn't a game of counterstrike. This is shooting with the intent of neutralizing an immediate threat. I'll strip away the euphemism. This is about taking a small piece of metal and shoving it through another person with the intent of killing them. To do that realistically you have to be either so superhumanly skilled that you can reliably hit a target about the size of a playing card while both you and it are moving and while it is firing back at you (CNS shot) or cause massive enough injury that the body shuts down from shock or hydraulic failure. I don't know anybody skilled enough to make a headshot in an actual gunfight without depending on a tremendous amount of luck. You want a round with enough penetration to reach the vitals, through an arm if necesary. YOu then want that round to do as much damage to as wide an area inside your advesary as possible. A wider path means more bleeding, more likely hood of something vital being damaged, and a greater chance of sucess. High velocity rifle rounds FMJ fragments, causing massive damage. Pistol rounds do not. I want my pistol rounds to expand and penetrate. The 180 grain Ranger Ts we carry do both VERY well and have performed superbly for us.

Speaking of unseemly, I once saw a man who had had a .380 hit him under the left eye. The round had exited the upper rear of his skull and had taken a substantial amount of skull and gray matter with it. The victim managed to drive his truck to the other side of the complex, pull himself up onto the vehicles roof, and point out the shooter to arriving POs before dropping dead. Headshots aren't always quick and clean. In the academy we had to watch a film of an officer who had taken a 12 gauge slug to the face and survived. He wasn't pretty, but he lived.

 

[cratz2]

Yeah... that's what I was thinking when I was reading thirdrails posts... Can you consistantly hit a 2 inch target as quickly as possible under the stress of being under an attack?

If not, I'd entirely drop the notion of planning on hitting the BG in his central nervous system. I think a better plan would to be able to put two shots of expanding HPs from a bullet/caliber combo with adequate penetration into the center of mass and while the BG was (hopefully) slightly disoriented, move in for a head shot.

I'm sure many of us think we will be able to make trick shots while under fire or knife attack, heck... most of us think we can shoot at paper better than we can consistantly, no doubt. But the concept of relying on non-expanding, possibly over penetrating ball ammo in hopes of making a CNS shot... well... it just seems like that should have a good backup plan.

My simple opinion is this: if your 9mm, 357 SIG, 357 Magnum, 40S&W, 10mm or 45ACP gun can reliably feed Rangers, Gold Dots or Golden Sabers, and can get the bullet up to a velocity where they will expand with some level of consistancy (ie over 3" barrel), then that is what will serve most people very well if the need ever arises. It's what most police have the best luck with and it's what basically ever source of 'stopping' data claims is consistantly good.

If your gun is not reliable with HPs or has a 2" barrel, then I'd recommend the heaviest ball or LSWC ammo you can control. I haven't played with EFMJs or PowerBall so I can't comment one way or the other.

Some folks claim over penetration is not a concern... And maybe it shouldn't be... but it is to me. And when the rounds that are less likely to overpenetrate are also the rounds most likely to end the fight quickly... it seems like a no-brainer.

And how many people honestly think that NATO-spec ball 9mm ammo is intended to only penetrate 12" in soft tissue?