.223/5.56 question

[stevekozak]

Have been thinking about picking up a companion inexpensive .223 bolt gun, like the Savage 110 or Ruger American to go with my AR. Does anyone know if those bolt guns will also handle the 5.56 round? My Ruger Mini 14 will, but I can't seem to find info on the American or the Savage. As far as that goes, what about the NEF Handi-rifle?

 

[Skylerbone]

Both the Savage and Ruger are chambered in .223 Remington. Shooting 5.56 is not advisable in either. Same deal with the NEF, also cut to .223

Mossberg produces a bolt in 5.56

 

[Mn Fats]

The scout 110 and American Ranch will do 5.56.

 

[KNO3]

The Ruger American 5.56 can chamber both. Generally, any rifle that can fire 5.56 can fire .223, just not the other way around due to the higher case pressure of 5.56.

 

[stevekozak]

Thanks for the replies!!

 

[jonnyc]

Yeah, haven't you read about the thousands of .223 (or 5.56) rifles that has blown up and killed or seriously injured everyone in a 2 mile radius?!?!?!?
With all the dire warnings I see all over the internet it must be happening all the time...not!
Manufacturers routinely mark them on their boxes as both being the same thing. Think that would be happening of ammo makers thought they might bear responsibility in a lawsuit. I don't think so. Do what you want, but most shooters, including myself, don't even think about it. Guns aren't made out of paper.

 

[edwardware]

Yeah, haven't you read about the thousands of .223 (or 5.56) rifles that have blown up. . .

Yup. At this point firing 5.56 in a .223 chamber is "not advisable" in much the same way as handloading is "not advisable".

 

[Skylerbone]

Yeah, haven't you read about the thousands of .223 (or 5.56) rifles that has blown up and killed or seriously injured everyone in a 2 mile radius?!?!?!?

Indeed, what could possibly go wrong using an incorrect loading. The ammo is not the problem, the chamber leade length is. Ignore the risks at your own peril but don’t advise people with a snarky disregard for consequences.

 

[250-3000]

My 223 Ruger M77 will not close the bolt on 5.56.

 

[gotboostvr]

Measure the COAL of a 5.56 then chamber and close the bolt on it, remove the cartridge and remeasure. If there's no detectable set- back you should be good to go I would think.

If it sets back, or you have to man handle the bolt to close it I would not fire it.

 

[Varminterror]

Measure the COAL of a 5.56 then chamber and close the bolt on it, remove the cartridge and remeasure. If there's no detectable set- back you should be good to go I would think.

If it sets back, or you have to man handle the bolt to close it I would not fire it.

And if it has a firm factory crimp, and was jammed 15thousandths but didn’t set back?

What do you think that pressure curve looks like compared to how it was designed?

 

[danez71]

The Ruger American Ranch with the 16" barrel is advertised as a 5.56 / .223 rifle.

I've been thinking about it myself.... yes, the one that takes AR mags even though I don't own an AR.

 

[BSA1]

I know a picture is worth a thousand words but yours requires a few more words than that.

What does the blown up rifle have to do with the topic?

View attachment 835336

 

[Garandimal]

I know a picture is worth a thousand words but yours requires a few more words than that.

What does the blown up rifle have to do with the topic?

That .223 will run in a 5.56mm chamber, but not necessarily the other way around.

So read the Bbl. stamp.




GR

 

[mustanger98]

IIRC, the neck of the 5.56 case is a tad longer than on a .223. This generates a tad more pressure. But, if you're a handloader and trimming cases to the published length for 5.56 and .223, they're the same round.

 

[Varminterror]

The neck is not longer on 5.56. The throat is typically longer. Different parts of a rifle chamber.

 

[jmr40]

There is more difference between commercial 30-06 ammo and rifles than between 223/5.56 commercial ammo and rifles. Manufacturing tolerances are greater than the difference between 223 and 5.56. The dimensions of 223 and 5.56 ammo is exactly the same. There are minor differences in 223 and 5.56 chambers, but almost never enough to matter. Mostly to allow more reliable feeding in military rifles. 5.56 CAN be loaded to slightly higher pressures with max loads. But while it is allowed, commercial 5.56 ammo is almost never loaded over 223 max pressure. I can't imagine anyone having a problem with in spec 5.56 ammo in a bolt action. If the ammo is overloaded you're going to have problems regardless of what is stamped on the barrel.

The biggest difference in the real world is that a semi-auto set up to run 223 ammo might not function reliable with higher pressure 5.56 ammo. When was the last time you saw a semi auto chambered for 223. If the rifle is chambered in 5.56 there will never be a problem shooting either ammo and Ruger's Ranch rifle is stamped 5.56.

 

[entropy]

The biggest difference in the real world is that a semi-auto set up to run 223 ammo might not function reliable with higher pressure 5.56 ammo. When was the last time you saw a semi auto chambered for 223. If the rifle is chambered in 5.56 there will never be a problem shooting either ammo and Ruger's Ranch rifle is stamped 5.56.

That's not what he asked; he asked whether the bolt guns in .223 would handle 5.56, and the NEF; I can speak to both of them. I have fired 5.56mm M855 in 2 bolt action Savage Axes, (The correct plural form) and an NEF Handi-Rifle. There were signs of high pressures in all of them. Flattened primers and rough extraction, and sometimes no extraction from the NEF. Convinced me enough to stop firing it in .223's. When the ammo incapacitates a single-shot rifle, time to stick to the correct ammo.

 

[edwardware]

Sheesh. Y'all should be ashamed you can't bother to do a little research:

1) The Google is your friend, i.e. Lucky Gunner's Lab 5.56 in .223. This has been wondered, and answered, innumerable times.
2) The different in published loading data between 5.56 and .223 is on the order of 3-5% charge weight.
3) The brass and primers are the same within normal inter-manufacturer variation, and LC brass is some of the lighter (thinner) brass available. If 5.56 produced pressures more than a few % above .223, the brass would have been redesigned.

That picture posted above (pretty disingenuously) is of a catastrophic over-pressure event, likely an obstructed bore, possibly a wrong-powder reload. 5.56 in a .223 chamber leade will result in over pressure on the order of 10% (see Lucky Labs above). At the very worst, you might experience a pierced primer or hard extraction. I never have, and I've run a fair bit of NATO surplus 5.56 through my .223 bolt gun, as have thousands of others.

 

[entropy]

While my personal experience may be anecdotal to you, edwardware, I was there; did my own research, and reached my own conclusion. And am reporting it here, as asked.

 

[Varminterror]

There is more difference between commercial 30-06 ammo and rifles than between 223/5.56 commercial ammo and rifles. Manufacturing tolerances are greater than the difference between 223 and 5.56.

This is not correct for the throat and leade angle difference for 5.56 and 223 Rem. The difference in leade angle isn’t within “manufacturing tolerances.”

 

[edwardware]

While my personal experience may be anecdotal to you, edwardware, I was there; did my own research, and reached my own conclusion. And am reporting it here, as asked.

Actually, the experience you cite lines up nicely with the data, especially the inconsistent extraction in the NEF.

 

[GunnyUSMC]

I keep this pic on my phone to help people that don’t understand the difference between 5.56 and 223.


I hand load some pretty hot 223 ammo for my 223 bolt guns, some hotter than 5.56.

 

[Demi-human]

So read the Bbl. stamp.

It would be easiest to just follow the directions.


In that picture the barrel would say, "I'm a muzzle loader, I don't like smokeless powder!"

 

[Laphroaig]

The best advice I think is to contact the manufacturer of the rifle you are interested in and see what they say.

I think that we have established that there is a difference in the leade dimensions of the 2 chambers.

As for pressure differences in the ammunition (all referenced from Wikipedia): SAAMI .223 max. pressure is 55,000 psi. US Military specifies 5.56 x 45 ammo tested by the SCATP method (which uses SAAMI protocols) at 55,114 psi. European NATO members use the C.I.P. method with a maximum chamber pressure of 62,366 psi. But the pressure transducers are placed differently than SAAMI, so while the number is greater, you are not comparing apples to apples.

Definitely muddy waters. Personally, I don't think there is much difference between the 2, unless your bullet is jammed into the .223 lands. I think that might be possible with some military armor piercing bullets and the like.