.223 ammo for home defense

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I recently bought 250 rounds of #4 buckshot for my 12 guage. For the 20, I'd have to settle on #3 buck. No. 1 buck is good, but if you really need to put 'em down, slug is better. Me? I recommend 7½ shot for in the house. YMMV.

IF you're going to use a .223 for HD/SD then I'd use Remington 45 grain Hollow points.

This is bad advice. Using varmint loads and birdshot will keep your rounds from penetrating as much through walls and such, but it will also keep you from effectively neutralizing the target as they will not penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs.

As for shotguns in general HD use...

One of the common misconceptions about the shotgun is that it is great in CQB because you can just aim in the general direction of the enemy and take them out with ease. The truth is, at CQB ranges, the patterns are still very very tight and you do in fact have to aim every shot.

Also, assuming you didn't have to aim because of the spread you would likely lose quite a bit of that power. A shotguns power doesn't comes from the effectiveness of one single pellet, but from the combined effect of 10+ pellets hitting the target together. Almost like a .32 auto hitting you 12 times all at once.

The AR15 shoots faster, more capacity (both of those help when engaging multiple targets), more accurately. Also, my AR15 carbine is shorter than my HD shotgun.

Not as good of stopping power shot for shot with the shotgun, but plenty more shot for shot than a pistol (with the correct load, NO BIRDSHOT!!!)

Also can defeat most commonly worn types of body armor better than a shotgun or a pistol.

For many years police agencies stayed away from the AR15 for CQB/Entry, etc... thinking that the collateral damage of the .223/5.56 round was worse than that from a shotgun, pistol, or SMG. Now you have agencies like the FBI who are slowly doing away with the MP5's and going to the AR15 carbines.

FBI studies have indicated that over penetration at CQB ranges are greatly exaggerated and .223 penetrates less in human tissue than most common pistol rounds (including JHP's) on average.

Another thing for me to consider is the amount of trigger time and training I have with an AR15 compared to a shotgun. I am easily the most proficient with my AR15. You must go with the weapon you have the most training and proficiency with, so consider that on a personal basis first and foremost.

Lastly, if the engagement takes you outside, you are equipped to handle targets at ranges far past typical CQB ranges.

I think a shotgun is a great HD weapon, but I wouldn't trade one for my AR15.
 
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maybe a 10/22 carbine for home defense with these?

Again, the issue is penetration. With the teeny tiny shot you're seeing (#8 or 9, IIRC) you're not doing much more than breaking the skin past 5 or 6 feet. Another issue is reliability in feeding. Most semiautos do poorly with shot shells, partly because some loadings are too light to fully cycle the action and partly because the plastic nose get jammed in the mechanism. I've tried CCI's out of my 10/22. I get one shot, then I have to cuss it and clear it. The pattern is nothing to brag about, either. Shot shells still get spun by the rifling and that spreads the pattern waaaay out. Bird shot is for birds.

As a side note, I've shot one of Taurus' Judge revolvers. A .410 shotshell is far better for snakes and quail than for people. It looks impressive on a paper target at 2 feet, but step back to 5 yards and I'd trust my 10/22 with .22 lr as a stopper before I'd trust that. There's a reason the .410 is recommended for small game and pest control. Think of it this way: an average human runs roughly the size of a big whitetail or muley up to the size of a black bear. Would you hunt either of these with bird shot?
 
If you really want people to think you are a "master", maybe you shouldn't go around reccomending an ineffective round such as #6 birdshot.

I figured there would be plenty of people who would jump on x_m1tanker with both feet for his choice of words. How 'bout we take the high road and cut him a sprout this time? A gentle reminder should be good enough. ;)
 
the advice in this thread is so bad, it should be stickied to the bottom of the forum.
 
i'm not a master of anything and have no firsthand experience shooting anything living with a .223/5.56 and i picked my SD ammo based mostly on (the now unavailable) Federal Ammo ballistic gel tests on their various types of ammo. after reading about and looking at the gelatin block pics of each type fired into bare, clothed, wallboarded and plywooded gelatin, i picked the 64 grain soft point as they seemed to be the most effective under the most about of conditions. i can use them for coyote control if need be and bad guy control too. i ended up with Winchester Ranger brand because thats what the local gun shop had in the bullet configuration that i wanted.

i sure i could analyze it more and probably over analyze it to death, but i'm happy with my choice and i'll just stick with it.

Bobby

edit: here's a link to the results, minus pictures: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2599763&postcount=36
 
If you are concerned about over penetration, use a shotgun and keep the Bushie in the safe. I like No. 4 shot for inside the house defensive purposes.
 
Shotshells...#6 loads...

Fellas, do whatever makes you happy.

Me? 55gr is the lightest I'll run, #1 shot is the smallest I'll shotgun with, and CCI shotshells are for rattlesnakes and water moccasins.
 


I recently bought 250 rounds of #4 buckshot for my 12 guage. For the 20, I'd have to settle on #3 buck. No. 1 buck is good, but if you really need to put 'em down, slug is better. Me? I recommend 7½ shot for in the house. YMMV.

IF you're going to use a .223 for HD/SD then I'd use Remington 45 grain Hollow points.

This is bad advice. Using varmint loads and birdshot will keep your rounds from penetrating as much through walls and such, but it will also keep you from effectively neutralizing the target as they will not penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs.
Have your seen what bird shot will do at 7-8 yards? That a long shot inside most homes. And my pump is full choke.

 
ROcky Mountain Tac,

That little post of mine had the 40 Federal you disparage as the third most effective people stopper according to Marshall and Sanow available when their data was published at 96 percent.

Only penitrated 9.8 inches of PERSON on average in 162 actual shootings of human beings, 156 of whom stoppewd after recieving only a one round dose.

Doesn't sound all that much like it will "keep you from effectively neutralizing the target"

In fact it sounds like a single round of Federal 40 grain varmit ammo has about the same stopping potentual on actual humans as a 12 guage 00 Buck Round. And with only one projectile to worry about.

But again I am not an x-spurt nor do I sell Tactical supplies.

-Bob Hollingsworth
 
maybe a 10/22 carbine for home defense with these? 35 of these in a mag will keep a platoon out of your house. as long as this topic keeps coming up we may as well be creative and innovative

Shotshells? In a .22 or a .45? You gotta be kidding me. Stick with the stuff that will keep you alive (like effective .223, Buckshot, Slugs, or REAL rounds. Not gimmicky stuff.


Look, Birdshot and snakeshot is WORTHLESS for home defense. That's the final word. Birdshot is for little birds. Snakeshot is, well, worthless to me.

maybe a 10/22 carbine for home defense with these? 35 of these in a mag will keep a platoon out of your house. as long as this topic keeps coming up we may as well be creative and innovative

No kidding.
 
Have your seen what bird shot will do at 7-8 yards? That a long shot inside most homes. And my pump is full choke.

To what? Paper targets? :rolleyes:

ROcky Mountain Tac,

That little post of mine had the 40 Federal you disparage as the third most effective people stopper according to Marshall and Sanow available when their data was published at 96 percent.

Only penitrated 9.8 inches of PERSON on average in 162 actual shootings of human beings, 156 of whom stoppewd after recieving only a one round dose.

Doesn't sound all that much like it will "keep you from effectively neutralizing the target"

In fact it sounds like a single round of Federal 40 grain varmit ammo has about the same stopping potentual on actual humans as a 12 guage 00 Buck Round. And with only one projectile to worry about.

It "might" work. A pellet gun or a sling shot might work too... I can think of probably 7-8 loads that are far better suited for personal defense over your load of choice.

BTW, Marshall and Sanow's work is not gospel, many other "experts" dispute much of their data.

You don't have to be an expert to know the facts and to have studied the results of testing from a variety of sources.
 
I'd just pull the dog off them & use whatever I happened to have ready for work at that time if necessary, but I like #1 buck, keep an AR platform carbine available, and am never far removed from a venerable .45ACP.
 
I'd just pull the dog off them & use whatever I happened to have ready for work at that time if necessary, but I like #1 buck, keep an AR platform carbine available, and am never far removed from a venerable .45ACP.

koja musta been peeking over my shoulder when I laid out my plan...
Dogs, Buckshot, AR,
45 ACP...It's all good!
 
This is ****ing rediculous. No matter what a HD thread revolves around, it always turns into a an argument about shotguns and birdshot.

"What .223 ammo for HD?"
"Shotgun with birdshot."

"Which handgun for HD?"
"Shotgun with birdshot."

"What .45 ammo for HD?"
"Shotgun with birdshot."

"Which buckshot load for HD?"
"Birdshot."

I edited my previous post where I wasnt very polite in asking that the shotgun posts be taken elsewhere, since this thread was about .223 ammo the shotgun vs AR debate needed to be taken elsewhere. I edited it out for two reasons. First, like this post, it wasnt very high road. Second, it wouldnt do any good. Pointing out that its not a shotgun thread seems to fire up the folks that mentioned the shotguns in the first place and they just get more vocal.

If I could see one thread about .223/AR15 HD ammo that didnt mention a shotgun I'd be tickled to death.

And for the record, Dick Cheney shot a 78 year old man with birdshot, and he's still kickin. You wanna use the same load on a 200lb man hyped up on God only knows what, go right ahead. I'll keep 00B in mine.

the advice in this thread is so bad, it should be stickied to the bottom of the forum.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to get Coke out of a keyboard?

I'm just curious, cuz I'm about to find out...
 
You use what you have at hand, be it primer-initiated, edged, or a rock . . . it all beats getting hurt or checking-out . . . hell, my socks could be considered deadly force and I have absolutely no idea how my skivvies would be categorized . . . (homonuclear-thermoblast-fallout, perhaps?). Whatever works . . . as my Sainted Father used to say (God Rest His wonderful & dearly-missed self): "You gotta pick the fruit where you find the tree, Son." Words truer than these were never spoken . . .
 
RockyMtnTactical,

Quote:
IF you're going to use a .223 for HD/SD then I'd use Remington 45 grain Hollow points.

This is bad advice. Using varmint loads and birdshot will keep your rounds from penetrating as much through walls and such, but it will also keep you from effectively neutralizing the target as they will not penetrate deep enough to hit vital organs.

Fact is I wouldn't use an AR for HD. I also Disagree with your analysis. The 40 grain HP has a Muzzle velocity of 3200 and is 3120 @ 100 yards with corresponding energy of 1160 & 865. Not only will it penetrate it has the power to Incapacitate. I will leave it at that.

But the OP asked:

.223 ammo for home defense
what I'm looking for:
-maximum effect on the target, if I'm going to fire I want the round to drop whoever is in my sights, I practice every week, sometimes multiple times, shot placement shouldn't be a problem for me.

I believe a Varmint round soft point, hollow point would be most effective.
 
glockman19 said:
Fact is I wouldn't use an AR for HD. I also Disagree with your analysis. The 40 grain HP has a Muzzle velocity of 3200 and is 3120 @ 100 yards with corresponding energy of 1160 & 865. Not only will it penetrate it has the power to Incapacitate. I will leave it at that.
Where are the ballistics tests that say varmint rounds have the power to incapacitate humans? Also, it wasnt an analysis, it is fact.

16ljllu.jpg

Hornady 75gr 5.56 TAP (8126N)
Black Hills 77gr Mk262 Mod 1
Hornady 75gr .223 TAP (80265)

DocGKR said:
Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. I would much rather go into battle with a guy who practices 15,000 rounds a year using generic 55 gr FMJ out of his old M16A1 than with some guy that has the latest state-of-the-art ammo and rifle, but only shoots 500 rounds a year. If you need to delve into the arcane subject of agency ammunition selection, below are the state of the art choices in .223/5.56 mm:

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For general purpose combat use with 1/7 twist barrels from 0 to 600 yards, I would choose one of the combat proven 5.56 mm (ie. 5.56 mm NATO pressure loads, not .223 SAAMI pressure loads which run about 200 f/s slower) heavy match OTM loadings: either the Hornady 75 gr TAP (#8126N) using the OTM bullet w/cannelure or the equally good 77 gr Nosler OTM w/cannelure loaded by Black Hills, followed by the 77 gr Sierra Match King OTM-which, while exceedingly accurate, offers slightly reduced terminal effects. If your expected engagement scenario is at more typical LE distances, say out to 200 yards, then the .223 SAAMI pressure loads are fine. The experimental BH loaded 100 gr OTM exhibits impressive fragmentation, even at relatively low velocities, however, their trajectory is like a rainbow-definitely for use under 150 - 200 yards.

NOTE: For general purpose LE use, if stuck with 1/9 twist barrels, the heavy 70+ gr match OTM loads are not universally accurate in all rifles and the 69 gr SMK OTM, the 68 gr Hornady OTM, the Winchester 64 gr JSP (RA223R2), or one of the new Federal 64 gr TRU (223L) JSP, Hornady 60 gr JSP, or Nosler 60 gr Partition JSP's are the best choices to most likely run accurately in the majority of 1/9 twist rifles. You are screwed with 1/12 twists, I would probably choose the 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical--LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle--P223T2) in order to ensure adequate penetration.

The best LE .223 loads for intermediate barrier penetration are the 62 gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3) and the similarly performing 55 gr Federal bonded JSP load. The Swift 75 gr Scirocco bonded PT and 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullets are also good choices. None of the OTM bullets, even the heavy 75 - 100 gr loads, offer good performance through automobile glass. FWIW, contrary to what many believe, 62 gr M855 FMJ also is not very good against glass. For military use, the M995 AP is the best choice for vehicles and glass.

If a short barreled 5.56 mm weapon, such as the Colt Commando, LMT/Crane Mk18 CQBR, HK416, HK 53, HK G36C, etc… is used with a 1/7 twist barrel, the 75 gr Hornady OTM, 77 gr Nosler OTM, 77 gr SMK OTM, and 100 gr BH OTM loadings offer acceptable performance, as do the LE Fed 55 or 62 gr Tac bonded JSP's and the 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullet; for LE with a 1/9 twist, stick with the Fed 55 or 62 gr Tac bonded JSP's or the 60 gr Nosler Partition JSP bullet. Remember, with barrels under 14.5”, the effective engagement distance is significantly reduced compared to the longer barreled carbines.

(Note: We are in the process of testing the .224 Barnes TSX all copper bullets--they appear to have good potential; if these preliminary results hold true through the conclusion of testing, then they will also be on the recommended list)

Whatever projectile is used, it is best with a cannelure to prevent bullet set-back in semi-auto/auto weapons. Also, be cautious with the exposed lead on the JSP designs. Often they will run great for up to 200-300 rounds, but then mysterious feeding failures will begin as a result of lead build-up on the feed ramps. I have personally seen this occur with a variety of JSP's including 55 gr, 60 gr, and 64 gr in a recent LE training course. As soon as FMJ or OTM was substituted, all the feeding failures ceased.

Be sure to watch your ammo storage conditions. Temperatures above 150 deg F will degrade the powder and cause pressure spikes. Hint: Think locked metal conex containers in the mid-east, car trunks in the southern U.S., and storage areas near heaters in the northern U.S. Also be cautions of leaving a round in a very hot chamber; besides the obvious danger of a cook-off, the powder can also be damaged by the heat, leading to dramatically increased pressures when the round is eventually fired.

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Most LE agencies around here use the Hornady 75 gr TAP OTM, Federal 55/62 gr bonded Tactical JSP, or Winchester 64 gr JSP (it is on the state contract and is VERY inexpensive)--all have worked very well in actual officer involved shootings. I carry the Hornady 75 gr OTM (SAAMI load) in 30 rd mags and a few 20 rd mags of Federal Tactical 62 gr JSP for barrier situations.

Do short barrel 5.56 mm carbines have some limitations? Yes, especially beyond 100 yards, but BFD…learn what they are, train, and drive on. For LE urban work with lots of entries and mounted work I use a 10.5” LMT CQB-R w/Aimpoint and Noveske KFH because, despite the ballistic compromise, for the mission it is the best choice. For GP/Patrol I carry a 16” with an Aimpoint and 3x magnifier in a LaRue LT649 (a 3.5x TA11 ACOG or S&B 1.1-4x Short Dot are also good choices) -- pick the right tool for the job.

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Mk262 using the 77 gr SMK OTM is built as premium quality ammunition intended for precise long-range semi-auto rifle shots from the Mk12. It is great for its intended purpose and in the military is the best currently readily available option to increase terminal performance with all 5.56 mm carbines. But Mk262 is NOT necessarily the best choice for LE or most military combat use from carbines (Mk18, HK416, M4, FN Mk16 SCAR-L), as Mk262 has demonstrated poor intermediate barrier performance, the inconsistent yaw cycle exhibited by all SMK’s, incomplete water proofing, fragile shelf-life in extreme temperatures, and high cost.

As articulated by recent military testing, what is urgently needed is a JAG approved, law of land warfare legal, environmentally robust, thermally stable combat rifle load with improved terminal performance, yet without the need for the 600+ meter precision accuracy of Mk262 in the Mk12. Such a carbine combat load needs to have a crimped and sealed primer, sealed case mouth, cannelure, acceptable accuracy out to 300-400 meters coupled with good soft tissue terminal performance (early consistent yaw, good fragmentation, at least 12 inches of penetration coupled with maximized tissue damage during the first 10 to 12 inches of travel in tissue, along with being “blind to barriers” and not suffering terminal performance degradation through intermediate barriers--especially automobile windshields & doors, and common structural walls.

Until recently this goal seemed impossible, however “Barrier Blind” ammunition requirements from multiple organizations, including the FBI, USMC, NSWC Crane/USSOCOM, & JSOC have yielded several options from industry that appear to effectively address this issue. For example, see the 01 June 2006 Marine Corps RFI (http://www.cbd-net.com/index.php/search/show/1087257) for “Barrier Blind” ammunition.
 
Bobarino said:
i'm not a master of anything and have no firsthand experience shooting anything living with a .223/5.56 and i picked my SD ammo based mostly on (the now unavailable) Federal Ammo ballistic gel tests on their various types of ammo.

If only someone had the foresight to save those pictures, so they would still be available to others ;) : http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=146306

csmkersh said:
Have your seen what bird shot will do at 7-8 yards?

I've seen what birdshot does at 15ft. The officer who was shot with it in the upper torso showed me. He walked to a nearby house and made his own 911 call after it happened. Perfect placement; but the shot didn't penetrate deeply enough to hit any vital organs and he was still conscious when the ambulance arrived.

Now don't get me wrong, birdshot sure can kill you. The problem is it doesn't stop targets reliably because it doesn't penetrate deeply enough to be effective. #6 shot at 1300fps (muzzle velocity) penetrates a maximum of 5" in bare ballistics gel (no clothes, no bones, no intervening barriers). Most of the shot stops by 4".

Now 4" is plenty of penetration - if the person is standing there like a range target facing you at an ideal distance. The heart is only 2" behind the sternum in an average male. What if there is a closet door in the way? Wall corner? Leather jacket? How about if they have their hands up in front of their chest (like they might if they are pointing a firearm back at you)? What if they aren't an average male? What if they are just standing sideways to you?

When you only have 5" of penetration maximum and 2" is necessary for your absolute, best-case scenario - you can't afford to lose much penetration before you have a problem.

Varmint rounds in .223 can have the same issue (see the above link for the Federal 40gr HP, which penetrates 5.75" in bare gel).

Look at the .223 picture thread. There is a cross-section picture of an average human male torso in that thread. The torso is approximately 19" wide and 8.5" deep total with about 2" to the sternum in front. Start looking at the different angles where 5" is going to leave you with a problem. Look at the thickness of those arms (even before you start thinking that skin elasticity on the arms may reduce penetration as much as 4" of gel on its own).
 
Fact is I wouldn't use an AR for HD. I also Disagree with your analysis. The 40 grain HP has a Muzzle velocity of 3200 and is 3120 @ 100 yards with corresponding energy of 1160 & 865. Not only will it penetrate it has the power to Incapacitate. I will leave it at that.
Yes, but you're leaving out what happens after that 40 grain HP encounters a barrier. Force = Mass times velocity squared. A 40 grain hollow point out of a .223 or 5.56 has plenty of energy, force, not because of its mass, but because of its velocity. You're not taking into account the rapid loss of velocity that occurs after almost any .223/5.56 bullet encounters a barrier. That rapid loss of velocity and resultant rapid loss of energy greatly reduce the rounds capability to penetrate after encountering a barrier. Formal FBI testing and informal testing by boxotruth, etc. back this up. Of course, the steel penetrator in M855 ball ammo is an exception.
 
"BTW, Marshall and Sanow's work is not gospel, many other "experts" dispute much of their data."

Again I am not an x-spurt.

WHo I am though is the guy that dug suspicious numbers from some of M or S's early work and pointed them out to Dr. Fackler. Personally. With my own widdle Skillcraft ball point.

You might say I was aware that M&S are not the be all and end all of fire arms figures when it wasn't cool to be so.

Still 162 up and 156 down doesn't sound like a lot of failures.

Maybe you did not notice, but my own favorite is the old 55 grain Reminton JSP and yes there is a lot out there "better" than that.

I also pointed out that I have no data on the stuff that came about in the last decade or so. The OP did ask for rounds that would not normally penitrate a bad guy with a Center of Mass Hit.

In home defense we are talking about shots inside 15 meters in all but the largest houses, against un armored humans. Don't really see the need for bullets of a weight more suitable to longer range and harder targets.

Like I said .22 short to Barrett Light Fifty knowing where the bullet will likely go is pretty darned important.

I've written quite a few post on THR to the effect that first get good with what you have and be sure you have a good plan and that those are more important than wish lists for the "best" gun or ammunition.

Went to see a great musical tonight and am in no mood to continue arguing over opinions.

Good night.

-Bob Hollingsworth
 
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