.223 for Beginners

[g_one]

I did my due diligence and searched around first before I posted. Although this question came up here and there, I couldn't find anything relating to my question specifically. I have a habit of being long-winded so I'll try to make a long story short:

I'm looking for a rifle to take to the range and try to get the smallest groups I can at 100 yards - purely recreational paper target shooting. For various reasons, I have decided it's going to either be a .22LR or a .223, and for the sake of this post let's say I've decided on a .223. My brother (gun collector and ex-Navy) has recommended that I start with a base model DPMS (the Sportical I believe) and have some fun with it, improve it bit by bit here and there. My thoughts are that for the money I spend on that, I could get a CZ 527 American and have a much better product right out of the box - at least for what I'll be using it for.

The prospect of owning an AR-style rifle does sound nice, but ultimately this gun really would just be for paper targets. If it's relevant to this post, I also plan on getting into reloading - my understanding is that bolt-action guns are somewhat easier to reload for, but perhaps that's just myth.

 

[Sav .250]

Not being one to get between brothers.............I`d keep doing my homework on what cal would be best.

Just busting paper........can get expensive.

 

[g_one]

I agree, I haven't ruled out the .22LR or .17HMR yet, but for the purposes of this post I'm primarily looking for a breakdown of pros/cons of an AR-style rifle vs. a bolt action like the CZ when it comes to target shooting, specific to the .223 caliber

 

[MrBorland]

I'm looking for a rifle to take to the range and try to get the smallest groups I can at 100 yards

IMO, off-the-rack AR15s and run-of-the-mill factory ammo aren't conducive to "smallest groups". If you decided you need or want a .223, I'd recommend a good bolt rifle, or a very good match-grade AR and some (read: a lot of) good ammo.

If you don't have access to more than 100 yards, a good bolt .22 and good ammo would be a great way to go - it'd be a lot cheaper and teach you more about shooting, IMO.

 

[brainwake]

I think for busting paper, the bolt action will suit you better. The AR has its strengths in mobility, portability, firepower etc.. But the bolt is better for accuracy. You could also look at a single shot rifle like a T/C Contender/Encore. Some pretty amazing records have been set by single shot rifles.

 

[MikeJackmin]

There are bolt action rifles that will shoot one-inch groups at 100 yards all day long, and bolt action rifles that will shoot quarter-inch groups, too. There are thousands of dollars and years of practice between the two.

If you want the first kind, a good AR will probably shoot one inch groups just as well. The AR, if fitted with a convenient way to shut off the gas system, becomes a straight-pull bolt action and the problems of chasing brass and full-length resizing go away. When your interests change you can configure that AR in a lot of different ways. It's a much more versatile platform.

If you want the second kind, make friends with your local benchrest shooters and buy a used rig that's no longer quite competitive any more. It will still shoot far better than you can and it will offer you a (comparatively) inexpensive way to learn the game. Reloading is almost as much a part of it as shooting is.

The only good argument for a bolt-action rifle of the first type is also the best argument - "because I want one". Personally, I prefer them too. There is nothing practical about the preference, it's just a matter of enjoyment. And unless you're getting paid to shoot, that's what it's all about.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

A lot of guys are going to tell you that a bolt action is inherently more accurate for a variety of different reasons. Personally I prefer the semi. It gives me faster follow up shots and I just think it is a bit more fun. The accuracy is not really a factor at 100 yards for me if I am just punching paper.

As far as reloading goes I wouldn't worry about the difference between a bolt and a semi unless you have both of them. If you have a bolt and a semi you will have to full length size the cases every time if you are going to use them interchangeably between the rifles. Again, not something to worry about until you have both types of rifles.

 

[brainwake]

Once you are into reloading you can make most any rifle hit at 100 yards. Reloading becomes the process of tuning the bullet to the gun. So I agree with Mike in a lot a ways. Get what is cool to you and what you will enjoy owning. Then learn the shooting techniques. Then start working on your reloads. If you have poor or under developed shooting techniques, you may have trouble tuning your reloads. Oh...and welcome to the obsession. enjoy.

 

[cat_IT_guy]

For what you describe, I'd lean toward the bolt gun. You can get a much more accurate rifle out of the box for a lot less money than you can with an AR. I own a bolt gun and an AR, and while I enjoy them both, for killing paper with little groups, the bolt gun has the edge IMO.

 

[g_one]

Thanks a lot everyone. I think everyone's input has me convinced that, if I go with a .223, that CZ 527 has my name all over it.

Now I just need to decide between .223 and rimfire... and if I go with rimfire I get the pleasure of making yet another decision between .22LR and .17HMR

 

[MikeJackmin]

I'd go with the .22, for the simple reason that you will shoot it more. You will also learn a lot about wind, which won't be nearly as apparent with the .223.

When you want to shoot further or hit harder, you'll buy another gun. You can probably do it just with the money you save on ammunition.

 

[ldlfh7]

I would pick the bolt gun (or single shot) in your situation. Only punching paper does not require a 30 round magazine and quick follow up shots.
The caliber is up to you. Personally I would go 223 but that is just me.
22 lr can still be tough to find but not impossible.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I think the 527 will probably start off closer to what you want to do; but an AR15 will surpass it eventually. One thing the AR has is just a massive knowledge base. I'm sure the CZ is a good gun; but the AR is easier to work on, easier to find custom parts for, and there are so many people using it (particularly for accuracy) that you don't have to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

Now I just need to decide between .223 and rimfire... and if I go with rimfire I get the pleasure of making yet another decision between .22LR and .17HMR

If it's relevant to this post, I also plan on getting into reloading

You can't reload .22LR or 17HMR. In my area .22's are still pretty hard to come by on a regular basis. I have no problem finding .223 or 17HMR. Not sure what the ammo situation is like in your neck of the woods though.

 

[brainwake]

punching paper with rimfire can teach you a lot of shooting techniques. But won't let you relax before pulling the trigger of a 300 Win Mag..or other powerful cartridge. So having something like a 223 with a mild yet still powerful report is a good way to train. Plus, while rimfire is cheaper, you can't learn the reloading techniques that go along either.

Another good caliber close to the 223 is the 243 win. But at 100 yards...meh...its whatever floats your boat.

 

[taliv]

factory guns are pot luck. some shoot. some don't. roll the dice.


AR15s in general are capable of great accuracy. However, they are not as easy to shoot as bolt guns. It was designed as a combat rifle/carbine. The standard configuration is not optimal for shooting groups off a bench.

as bart said, you may find it much more enjoyable later on as it is much more versatile and infinitely upgradeable.

but for your purpose, i would definitely go with a bolt gun.

bolt guns aren't "easier" to load for, but you have more options. for example, you could only size the neck in a bolt gun, where neck sizing only may cause feeding issues in the semi-auto. you can also typically seat bullets out a long way to get near the lands. you can do that in an AR too, but you won't be able to feed from the magazine. (this is common in NRA HP/CMP where service rifle shooters at 600 yards will use a 80g SMK which won't fit in the magazine. it's not a problem since the competition rules require single feeding and prohibit magazine feeding.)

 

[Legionnaire]

Good thoughts above. ARs can be made to be very accurate. I own an AR and a couple of bolt action .223s. I much prefer the bolt actions for punching paper. The CZ 527 is a fine gun; had one for a while, but never got used to the "reverse" safety (rear to fire). Call me quirky, but that one feature caused me to dislike the gun in time; sold it in favor of a Remington Model 7 and am much happier.

Cartridge? I'd opt for .223 for 100 yard paper punching. 100 yards can be a stretch for a .22 rimfire. I like the process of tuning a center fire load to a rifle. Given that you have lots of options with regard to bullets and powders, you can tune mild target loads, hunting loads, or even loads optimized for longer ranges. And while 100 yards is fun, 600 yards is inside the envelop of the .223. That would sway me in that direction.

 

[Cee Zee]

That CZ and an AR are entirely different weapons and those telling you that the AR will be the better choice down the road are talking about a very expensive AR if they expect it to be more accurate than a good bolt action. And the accuracy of a .223 far exceeds 100 yard groups. I've shot sub 1" groups at 500 yards with my Savage 12 LRPV. It's a single shot and heavy so you aren't going to hold off a drug gang that is bent on keeping you from testifying or whatever. But it will amaze you how well it can group shots together. And that CZ should be a heck of a shooter too. One look at my name and you can guess what I think of their products.

Buy what you want. That's what will make you happy. As for buying a .22 right now keep in mind that ammo is scare as hen's teeth. Some rifle makers are actually including some ammo with their .22 rifles to help bolster sales. Nobody wants a gun they can't find ammo for. I've been tempted to sell some of mine for that reason but not many people are buying them these days. I'd get a .223 now and wait for better days to get a .22. I saw about 5 types of ammo on the .22 ammo shelf of the last gun shop I went into. Maybe things will break soon. But until they do I wouldn't suggest anyone buy a .22.

I love shooting tiny groups with my Savage. The rangemaster at the local gun club told me that all the medium range shooters (600 yards) were pretty much using the same rifle I have. You can make an AR shoot very well though. It just isn't cheap to do it or even close to being cheap.

 

[Sunray]

What's your budget including the sights?
MSRP on the CZ 527 American is a bit over $700 with the scope rings. An AR clone will run a grand to several grand depending on the maker. A real Colt runs around $2500ish. Cabela's prices because their site surfaced first.
The only difference in reloading for a semi-auto is that you must full length resize every time and watch the case and OA Lengths. Other than that it's no different than loading for a bolt action.

 

[ugaarguy]

Sunray, prices in Canada must be horrid. You can get a real Colt here in the US for under $1,000 - http://www.cdnnsports.com/6920-16-flat-top-rogers-ret.html#.U6Hqafn3s-p.

g_one, If you want a low cost base AR-15 skip DPMS. You can get a S&W M&P Sport with much better components for $565 shipped - http://grabagun.com/catalog/product/view/id/11888/s/s-w-m-p15-spt-556nato-16-30rd-fld. S&W bought T/C in the mid 2000s in large part to acquire their rifle bbl manufacturing capability.

I suppose the question is whether is whether you want a turn bolt repeater or a semi-auto modern sporting rifle.

 

[ZGunner]

OP, I've recently acquired a rifle for the same reason you explain. My wife wanted a paper puncher with very little recoil. So I did some wheeling and dealing. Long story short I traded for a 24" fluted bull barrel Rem 700 in .223. Put a Mueller 8.5-25x50 scope on it and found what ammo it liked, 52 gr A-Max. Only downside is the twist, 1:12, doesn't allow us to use the heavier bullets. But the way it slings those 52-55 gr loads I don't need anything heavier. Initial testing showed right under an inch 5-round groups at 100 from prone off a bipod. The one time we took it to the range we were both hitting bowling pins at 300-350 yards with a very slight holdover. Have just over $650 in it.

I also had a great shooting Stag Arms Model 6 w/ Nikon M223 3-12x40 (not sure on scope dimensions). 24" stainless bull barrel would easily shoot one inch groups at 100 yards. It had a 1:8 twist so it was more versatile in bullet selection. Unfortunately I got rid of it before I started reloading so I never really got it tuned in. I had about $1400 between rifle and scope.

I guess what I'm trying to say is you'll get more bang for your buck from a bolt IMO. And I would highly recommend a heavy barrel if you don't want wandering groups after a box of ammo. I believe the brand is preference. I have a CZ in 17HMR, amazing quality, also a fantastic shooter! I would not hesitate to purchase any other CZ firearm.

 

[g_one]

ugaarguy : (and if that's a UGA reference, go 'dawgs) I also recently had someone PM me directly talking about the M&P Sport, which sparked me to do some research. Everything about it (at least, the reviews I've read) points to it being a great rifle at a great price. Definitely something to consider - especially since it might be nice to have at least one semi-auto rifle around the house.

 

[The_Next_Generation]

Cautionary note on the cz

Be aware that the CZ 527 in .223 has a *very* slow twist rate of 1:12. While this is just fine for lighter bullets (<55gr), you may find it impossible to get good results with bullets that are any heavier since you want to get int handloading. Personally, I would be bummed if I couldn't stabilize a nice 75gr AMAX..

Savage and Remington make good rifles, but honestly you may find that eventually you will want an AR15 (especially if you don't have one already). While "quick follow up shots and a 30rd mag" may not be necessary for what you want to do currently, the versatility of the AR-type rifle should not be ignored! I opted for an AR15 instead of a 223 bolt gun and while the AR cost a little more to set up, I have a rifle that is capable of filling many roles.

Something to consider: You might get bored at 100 yards someday, and a 223 with good handloads can make it out pretty far (furthest I've shot is ~605yds on an 8" plate). Unless you already have an MOA (or less) accurate centerfire rifle, I'd recommend you go with the .223.

However if you really just want to punch paper at 100 yards, there is no way I'm going to talk you out of a CZ 452/455 in whatever caliber you choose. One thing that is cool about the new 455 is that you can change the barrel pretty easily for different rimfire calibers. Given the scarcity of 22lr, my choice would be a 22WMR/17HMR, rifle/barrel combo.

I have a 452 trainer in 22lr and a CZ 550 American in 308; I absolutely love CZs.

TLDR: For learning to load + versatility, get the AR. For basic paper-punching, get a rimfire.

Good luck!

 

[Cee Zee]

Savage and Remington make good rifles, but honestly you may find that eventually you will want an AR15

I bought a Savage and paid enough for it that I could have bought a nice AR. I haven't regretted it one second. I've shot nice AR's. They don't compare in accuracy to the rifle I own unless you spend a bunch of money making it into a super accurate AR. They don't come cheap. Yes they are versatile and that's why you can make one into an accurate rifle. But for punching paper you will spend far less getting .5 MOA than you will with an AR. It's probably about 3-1 in price for the same accuracy.

There's nothing wrong with an AR. But for the money if you want accuracy you should get a bolt gun. If you want an AR later sell your bolt gun and buy an AR. Or better still buy the AR later and keep the bolt gun. Oh and buy a CZ 453too . It's the best choice of the series IMO at least until they start putting single set triggers on the 455. Remember it's really never "either" it should be "both".

 

[Ks5shooter]

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...545400/Stag+Arms+SA6+Super+Varminter+5.56+24"




Best price I have found and shipping is included.Stag Arms Super Varminter.

The super varminter allows for maximum accuracy from the AR-15 platform with a 100 yard .5" group accuracy guarantee.


Product Specs

Action: Semi-auto direct impingement

Chamber: 5.56 NATO - this rifle will also shoot .223

Twist Rate: 1/8 button rifled

Muzzle Device: 11 degree target crown

Barrel: 24", 410 stainless steel, heavy bull barrel

Handguard: Hogue free floating handguard w/ sling swivel attachment

Upper Receiver: Forged and mil-spec 7075 T6 aluminum with type 3 hard coat anodizing and a picatinny rail on top

Bolt Carrier: Enhanced semi-auto with a manganese phosphate coating

Charging Handle: Standard mil-spec

Front Sight: Low profile gas block

Rear Sight: None

Lower Receiver Material: 7075 T6 aluminum with a type 3 hard coat anodizing

Hammer/Trigger pin size: Mil-spec small pin .154"

Pivot/Takedown Pin Size: Mil-spec small pin - .250"

Caliber Marking: 5.56 NATO

Buttstock: A2 buttstock with trap door for storage

Buffer: A2 buffer with A2 action spring

Trigger: 2-stage match trigger = 2 pound first stage with a 3.5 pound letoff

Grip: Hogue overmolded grip

Magazine: 10rd

Safety Selector: Right Hand
*