Is .223, in it's 55 grain soft point form to be specific, suitable for black bear? My HD rifle is my M4 loaded with .223 remington corelokt and I am wondering if on the odd chance I had an angry, violent black bear on my hands would this suffice given proper shot placement, or would I be better off using my 12ga with 00 buckshot or slugs?
.223 for Black Bear
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unwise11
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End all answer, ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Use slugs, bears don't like slugs.
I have slugs in my HD shotgun, Bad guys don't like slugs either.
Use slugs, bears don't like slugs.
I have slugs in my HD shotgun, Bad guys don't like slugs either.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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If you would like to experience the digestive tract up close and personal like of a Black Bear, then by all means go for it. Your research, while painful, will be thorough to say the least (better way of saying you will end up being bear poop) 
You are more likely to see 2 legged aggression than from a Black Bear unless you trespass too close to a Sow and her cubs. First defense would be, if you are actually in bear country, a good can of Bear Spray. Stuff works wonders. Last on order would be that 12 gauge with slugs.
Like others said, a .223 with the ammo you stated can kill one, but not quickly and certainly not stop a charge.
You are more likely to see 2 legged aggression than from a Black Bear unless you trespass too close to a Sow and her cubs. First defense would be, if you are actually in bear country, a good can of Bear Spray. Stuff works wonders. Last on order would be that 12 gauge with slugs.
Like others said, a .223 with the ammo you stated can kill one, but not quickly and certainly not stop a charge.
sayak
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There are hundreds of folks out in the native villages of Alaska who routinely hunt and kill black bear, as well as caribou, moose and probably even brown bear with the .223. Why is that? It is cheep to shoot and a good many young men have been or are in the Natl. Guard and are very familiar with that round which they generally shot from an AR or Mini 14 platform. I'm not saying that all such hunting is ethical, but it is common. The .223 is effective for blackies in the hands of a capable shooter.
As for me, I would not carry anything lighter than a .30.06 if I anticipated bear of either species. I would feel even more comfortable with a 12 gauge appropriately loaded when I'm around brownies and not hunting for moose. I always make sure I'm prayed up as well.
As for me, I would not carry anything lighter than a .30.06 if I anticipated bear of either species. I would feel even more comfortable with a 12 gauge appropriately loaded when I'm around brownies and not hunting for moose. I always make sure I'm prayed up as well.
unwise11
Member
I must restate my opinion, If you can get an M-16 lower, with an NFA class 3 permit, and mate it to a new production upper that wont stovepipe or double feed, and buy a Beta Mag, load it Up with 75 gr Hornady Match, and 55gr softpoint, in a special pattern, then go for it. A=75 grs. B=55grs. The pattern would look like this,
ABABABABBBBBABABABABBBBAAAAABBBAABBBABBBABABBABBBBABABAABBBABABABB
If not, no the slugs are better.
ABABABABBBBBABABABABBBBAAAAABBBAABBBABBBABABBABBBBABABAABBBABABABB
If not, no the slugs are better.
WTBguns10kOK
member
Much as I hate to agree with everyone, your rifle is basically pointless for both home defense and bear. Consider the ranges at which you're using said gun, and then the size of the projectile to the stop the threat.
bubbinator
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While I sometimes hunt with a .224 centerfire(multiple cals) legally in AL, our deer don't take a lot to kill, escpecially with a well placed shot. We do have bears here, one showed up in a tree less than 2 miles from my house a couple yrs ago. The Game Wardens threatened anybody thinking of shooting with life w/o almost! Also having killed mulptiple deer, charging feral dogs and 42 yrs LEO experience-Big, mad stuff, human or animal do not like slugs (to steal and above appropriate statement). I would like to add- I do think a Mini 14 GB (Class III) is an adequate HD weapon, IMHO.
unwise11
Member
Now let me say this a little in defence of the .223, the main reason it has been rumored of not killing overseas is due to using FMJ ammo, punching a small hole, and is not as effective as a good hollowpoint or softpoint, unless it hits ribs, or the spine.
But I think a carbine AR or Mini-14 can be a nice Home defence weapon, as long as you use the right type of ammo, (the 55gr softpoint I think penetrates less wall than 9mm or some pistol round) it will be good for Home defence against 2 legged predators.
But I think a carbine AR or Mini-14 can be a nice Home defence weapon, as long as you use the right type of ammo, (the 55gr softpoint I think penetrates less wall than 9mm or some pistol round) it will be good for Home defence against 2 legged predators.
mc223
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A 223 would be better than even the best thrown rock.
Freedom_fighter_in_IL
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LOL I sorta agree and sorta don't there. A .223 is DEFINITELY going to piss one off. A rock, may actually turn it but more than likely isn't going to injure it and make it even MORE angry.
HorseSoldier
Member
Shotgun + slugs, as others have already stated.
Float Pilot
Member
I was a cop in the bush.
The primary answer is that during their 365 day a year poaching season, they do not care much about ethical and clean kills.
Ammo is cheaper than whiskey and it is much easier to run down a moose in deep snow with 10 snow machines, while everyone is firing 30 round magazines.
End of rant:::
Use solid Brenneke Slugs, not the hollow bowl Foster type slugs that are common. DO NOT USE BUCKSHOT, it will not penetrate heavy bones or skulls even at very close range.
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Kachok
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Short anwser. your best option for self defence aginst a charging bear with your 223 is to put it on safty and wack him in the head with it 
No 223 round is remotly suitable for that sized anamal, neither is buckshot. hardend slugs are good, high powerd revolvers are good, if you like the M4 platform and want a weapon just for bear stopping the .50 Beowolf is the REAL DEAL!
No 223 round is remotly suitable for that sized anamal, neither is buckshot. hardend slugs are good, high powerd revolvers are good, if you like the M4 platform and want a weapon just for bear stopping the .50 Beowolf is the REAL DEAL!
Snowdog
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If you plan on firing a single round from your M4 and wait to observe effect, you will likely find the small .223 slug lacking in the butt-saving department. However, I believe 10-15 rounds from your M4 will yield a far different result.
Though I wouldn't specifically choose the M4 for bear protection personally, I'm quite convinced it will do the job as long as you plan on skewering the beast with at least half the slugs in your magazine.
Though I wouldn't specifically choose the M4 for bear protection personally, I'm quite convinced it will do the job as long as you plan on skewering the beast with at least half the slugs in your magazine.
If you're talking about black bear, just the noise of a .223 will probably be enough to scare it off. I have scared them off with just a .22LR before.
Black bears, unless you're talking about some screwy circumstance, are not supercharged bringers of death and doom. They're just bears. Don't piss them off and you almost certainly won't have to shoot one in the first place.
I say this from experience - I have seen about ten in just chance encounters in the woods, both hunting or just hiking. None of them has ever made even the most slightly threatening move. The one I scared away with the .22 was when I was a kid - just seeing it that close scared me a little so I gave it a warning shot into a tree and it left. All the others have either outright fled for their lives when they saw me or just sort of wandered off and kept doing their own thing.
But I agree that on the off chance you do have to defend yourself against one, use slugs and you should be fine.
Black bears, unless you're talking about some screwy circumstance, are not supercharged bringers of death and doom. They're just bears. Don't piss them off and you almost certainly won't have to shoot one in the first place.
I say this from experience - I have seen about ten in just chance encounters in the woods, both hunting or just hiking. None of them has ever made even the most slightly threatening move. The one I scared away with the .22 was when I was a kid - just seeing it that close scared me a little so I gave it a warning shot into a tree and it left. All the others have either outright fled for their lives when they saw me or just sort of wandered off and kept doing their own thing.
But I agree that on the off chance you do have to defend yourself against one, use slugs and you should be fine.
Id say slugs as well, but I also believe that if your even remotely accurate with your M4 putting 10 rounds (which you have to admit doesn't take long) in the forehead of a charging black bear is gonna do the trick, that's just a SD last ditch effort. I wouldn't go hunting even black bear with .223.
I do have a buddy who's father use to run hounds for bear, cats, coons etc in Oregon. I've seen 5 bear rugs that they have. 3 were killed with rifle, 2 with pistol all cambered in .22mag. You can kill anything in the Northwest with .22lr at 50yrds but shot placement is key. Then again its one thing to be able to take your time to hit that "Sweet spot" & another when you have 300lb+ bear running after you.
I do have a buddy who's father use to run hounds for bear, cats, coons etc in Oregon. I've seen 5 bear rugs that they have. 3 were killed with rifle, 2 with pistol all cambered in .22mag. You can kill anything in the Northwest with .22lr at 50yrds but shot placement is key. Then again its one thing to be able to take your time to hit that "Sweet spot" & another when you have 300lb+ bear running after you.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Well, I'm not up on my black bear anatomy; but unless they are substantially different from any other large mammals, there are only two ways to stop a black bear:
1. Make the black bear change its mind
2. Make the black bear physically unable to harm you
Like most other large mammals, option #2 means you must hit the central nervous system to have an immediate effect or hit major vital structures and wait for deprivation of oxygen to the brain to shut down the CNS.
So, any caliber capable of penetrating to where the central nervous system of a black bear is or where the major vital structures of a black bear are, has the potential to kill a black bear.
Having said that, the big reason 55gr softpoints are popular is for LACK of penetration. It typically penetrates less than buckshot which has already been described as inadequate for bear-hunting by another poster. I would guess on a large mammal like a bear with a lot of muscle, fat and a big skeletal structure, .223 55gr softpoints are going to severely limit the angles and target zones where you will have enough penetration to reach those vitals.
So the real questions are:
1. How familiar are you with black bear anatomy? Do you know where you need to aim to hit the CNS/vital structures on one and do you have even a vague idea of the underlying anatomy that might stop a 55gr softpoint from reaching those structures?
2. Do you have the skill to put a 55gr round in those spots under extremely high stress?
1. Make the black bear change its mind
2. Make the black bear physically unable to harm you
Like most other large mammals, option #2 means you must hit the central nervous system to have an immediate effect or hit major vital structures and wait for deprivation of oxygen to the brain to shut down the CNS.
So, any caliber capable of penetrating to where the central nervous system of a black bear is or where the major vital structures of a black bear are, has the potential to kill a black bear.
Having said that, the big reason 55gr softpoints are popular is for LACK of penetration. It typically penetrates less than buckshot which has already been described as inadequate for bear-hunting by another poster. I would guess on a large mammal like a bear with a lot of muscle, fat and a big skeletal structure, .223 55gr softpoints are going to severely limit the angles and target zones where you will have enough penetration to reach those vitals.
So the real questions are:
1. How familiar are you with black bear anatomy? Do you know where you need to aim to hit the CNS/vital structures on one and do you have even a vague idea of the underlying anatomy that might stop a 55gr softpoint from reaching those structures?
2. Do you have the skill to put a 55gr round in those spots under extremely high stress?
So I take it 12ga slugs are much better bear medicine, but .223 can get the job done fairly quickly if I empty the mag into it.
For home defense? I have to disagree, at the ranges I'm talking about .223 is a devastating caliber against 2-legged predators, especially with expanding ammunition. Although it's more my SHTF-outside the house gun, while my M&P45 is my go to gun inside the house.
1. I assume it's much like deer anatomy.
2. Honestly I'm not sure yet because I've never had to shoot under an extremely stressful situation. I'm going to guess my shot placement would be less than perfect, in which case 12ga slugs would be a better idea.
For home defense? I have to disagree, at the ranges I'm talking about .223 is a devastating caliber against 2-legged predators, especially with expanding ammunition. Although it's more my SHTF-outside the house gun, while my M&P45 is my go to gun inside the house.
1. I assume it's much like deer anatomy.
2. Honestly I'm not sure yet because I've never had to shoot under an extremely stressful situation. I'm going to guess my shot placement would be less than perfect, in which case 12ga slugs would be a better idea.
Bartholomew Roberts
Member
I don't know much about bear anatomy myself, so I'd guess you were right as far as layout; but I bet it is much different in terms of bone density, muscle, etc. A black bear can reach 500lbs, so it is going to need a heavier skeletal structure to support that weight, bigger muscles to move the skeleton, etc. Both of those probably mean that what penetrates fine on a deer probably won't penetrate as well on a bear. Of course, the key word there is "guess." I don't know much about the subject.
Well, let me give an example I am familiar with. If you are facing me with your arms down at your sides, then any round that can penetrate 5" is capable of reaching your vitals and I have a nice 8" wide or so target zone facing me.
Now raise your arms up above your head and turn sideways - oops, smaller target zone now and it looks different from this angle. Plus I've got a little more meat to penetrate so now 5" will probably get there; but I stand a chance of not having enough penetration.
Now drop your arms to your sides - uh oh, the amount of exposed area where 5" penetration is sufficient just got really, really small. I either need deeper penetration, or I need to be really good.
These same principles apply to a bear, except the bear may be charging you at speeds that no human being could achieve, so you'll have a lot less time to sort all of that out. I certainly think it is possible to kill a bear with .223; but if I was defending myself against a bear, I don't think I would want to limit myself to those odds. Still, .223 beats sharp pointy stick.
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