223 for deer update

[JimKirk]

The old style cup & core lead bullets have worked for a long time ... they have been tested thoroughly ...

The .243 caliber and up cartridges have also been "tested" over the ages ... they work ..

There are new "less" tested bullets and Cartridges out there ... and it is critical to make a wise choice when "testing" them ...

But to make a bad CHOICE and then blame the cartridge for the unwise choice... kind of sounds like the politicians we hear everyday ... in this case the cartridge is catching the blame ... not the real problem which was the wrong choice of bullets.... plain and simple !!

 

[MCgunner]

Or....wrong choice of cartridge. Just sayin'.....

Why push a medium range prairie dog cartridge to put down a 150+ lb buck? Why not use the tried and true? I mean, there's no end to choices .243 and above. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Ah, but the .243 doesn't come in a direct impingement AR15. THIS is the crux of the problem. The little video game warriors won't shoot a Fudd gun.

Some AR types bite the bullet and get an AR10. Some go for a bigger bullet, if not much more power, and get a .300 BLK upper or something named after a mythical old English monster. There are choices even for the AR afflicted, beyond the prairie dog caliber it was originally designed for. Even the .22-250 would be an improvement, though it offers no more bullet.

Of course, if you gotta play assault force in the deer stand, hey, Chris Kyle's favorite (in his book "American Sniper") was the .300 Win Mag. THAT is certainly adequate!

 

[tomturkey]

I have too much respect for the deer I hunt to use a cartridge that is not designed to do a proper job of putting the deer down if the shot is not exactly perfect.

 

[jim in Anchorage]

Or....wrong choice of cartridge. Just sayin'.....

Why push a medium range prairie dog cartridge to put down a 150+ lb buck? Why not use the tried and true? I mean, there's no end to choices .243 and above. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Ah, but the .243 doesn't come in a direct impingement AR15. THIS is the crux of the problem. The little video game warriors won't shoot a Fudd gun.

Some AR types bite the bullet and get an AR10. Some go for a bigger bullet, if not much more power, and get a .300 BLK upper or something named after a mythical old English monster. There are choices even for the AR afflicted, beyond the prairie dog caliber it was originally designed for. Even the .22-250 would be an improvement, though it offers no more bullet.

Of course, if you gotta play assault force in the deer stand, hey, Chris Kyle's favorite (in his book "American Sniper") was the .300 Win Mag. THAT is certainly adequate!

I think you nailed the whole ".223 is good for deer" thing. I get to use my AR!

 

[Casefull]

The never ending attempt to prove the 22 caliber bullet sufficient for killing deer sized game.
When things are not ideal the animal is going to travel. Hit a hard or heavy bone at an angle and deflection can happen very easily and should be expected. That is why the heavier, larger diameter bullets, even if traveling slower do a better job. I hunt with 30 caliber ttsx bullets on elk and deer. I like their performance but I believe there are situations where the density of a lead bullet is better than the solid copper round. I had one deflect off a front leg/shoulder bone this season (large bull elk). The bullet was actually bent and did not expand. I have never had the ttsx not expand before.

 

[Davek1977]

Not everyone who has shot a deer with an AR-15 so similar rifle is living out some COD/Battlefront fantasy. For me, it was a desire to simply try something different. After many seasons of "bang-flops" with my 7mm, it got almost routine, and personally, I don;t ever want the act of killing to become "routine". I belileve the animal deserves more than that. I Do have all the respct in the world for the game I hunt, and I don't believe my selection of a .223 AR to hunt with conflicts with that in any way. It has harvested the animals I've used it on cleanly and as humanely as I could expect any death to be. For me, it was a break from the norm, and something I wanted to see for myself, after reading hundreds of threads similiar to this one. My choice had absolutely nothing to do with video games or movies, Chris Kyle or any other "sniper". I had a rifle that many claimed was sufficient for deer-sized game that I had not used for such purposes previously. Two kills, one whitetail buck (5x5) and one mule deer buck (5x6) isn't a sample size many would be comfortable with, but it proved..to me...that my AR was capable of cleanly killing the only two species of big games animals I routinely hunt here in SD.

 

[rondog]

If'n I desired to use my AR-15 to hunt deer, I think I'd want to drop a .300 Blackout upper on it first. Don't think I'd even try using .223. But I have a slew of other rifles to choose from first. So I reckon I'm in the "won't use .223 for deer" camp as well. No reason to.

 

[JimKirk]

Not everyone who has shot a deer with an AR-15 so similar rifle is living out some COD/Battlefront fantasy. For me, it was a desire to simply try something different. After many seasons of "bang-flops" with my 7mm, it got almost routine, and personally, I don;t ever want the act of killing to become "routine". I believe the animal deserves more than that. I Do have all the respect in the world for the game I hunt, and I don't believe my selection of a .223 AR to hunt with conflicts with that in any way. It has harvested the animals I've used it on cleanly and as humanely as I could expect any death to be. For me, it was a break from the norm, and something I wanted to see for myself, after reading hundreds of threads similar to this one. My choice had absolutely nothing to do with video games or movies, Chris Kyle or any other "sniper". I had a rifle that many claimed was sufficient for deer-sized game that I had not used for such purposes previously. Two kills, one whitetail buck (5x5) and one mule deer buck (5x6) isn't a sample size many would be comfortable with, but it proved..to me...that my AR was capable of cleanly killing the only two species of big games animals I routinely hunt here in SD.

Perfect....!!

 

[Sav .250]

Sounds like some states have no mim cal to hunt big game with ....like deer.

 

[LRShooting]

Definitely the wrong bullet if the exit and entrance were the same size. Dont try this on anything other than deer, but use some black hills reman with VMax. They dump most of the energy in the deer rather than going through it. A shoulder shot will still end up with the bullet going at least into the other shoulder.

This is just my preference. I never lost a deer with those rounds, and most of them went less than 15-20 yards. Especially when I did head or neck shots . My 308 works fine and I use it primarily now, but not because of power reasons. Mainly range.

 

[vladamiraaron]

Federal Fusion 62 grain is what I use. It's always broken bones and left the lungs and heart a liquid soupy mess. I've had one run about 30 yards once. She also jumped between the electrified strands of a horse fence... with a shattered shoulder and no lungs or heart. You just never know because sometimes they don't know they're dead. The round was designed for deer and it works.

 

[MCgunner]

If'n I desired to use my AR-15 to hunt deer, I think I'd want to drop a .300 Blackout upper on it first. Don't think I'd even try using .223. But I have a slew of other rifles to choose from first. So I reckon I'm in the "won't use .223 for deer" camp as well. No reason to.

The .300 BLK seems to me to be the best option if you like pistol grips and 20 round mags. It's basically a weak .30-30, but mostly it approximates my .30-30 12" Contender with which I've downed 5 deer, longest out at 90 yards. I'd trust that particular gun to 200 yards. It's certainly accurate enough and is just under 1000 ft lbs at 200 yards, the traditional minimum, shooting a 150 Nosler BT. It whacks 'em dead with lung hits, so I can't see any reason the .300 BLK would perform any different. With THAT as a choice, why would ANYone wanna risk a lost deer with the .223? Same rifle. Heck, buying a .300 BLK upper is almost like getting another new rifle! As a handloader, I could have fun with the little round working up a good load over my chrony.

Again, I consider (JMHO) the .300 BLK the best option in ARs if you aren't going to go to the heavier AR10. The .300 BLK is a legitimate deer caliber for woods ranges IMHO.

 

[Panfisher]

Guess a couple of kids I loaned a .223 Handi Rifle didn't know they were supposed to use an AR instead. Amazing what can be done when the shooter doesn't know it is a terrible deer calibr. The federal fusions, Nosler Partitions and lighter weight (55 gr) Barnes TSX, have performed wonderfully for them, for me, and for others. I have blown pieces of lung out of white tails with a 7mm Mag and had them run 50 yards, and seen them drop in their tracks with a .223 Nos. Partition. And while I do like to hunt with my AR I don't play video games and am not bothered by letting a.deer walk at 200 yards that I would have taken easily with.my .280 Rem.

 

[buck460XVR]

Share it here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=790503

I don't think this depiction is accurate.....



IMHO, the lungs are generally higher and farther forward, as in this pic...



Many has been the time when I've helped track deer(more with a bow than with a gun, and mainly because I have had good GWPs over the years that were excellent blood trailers) that folks claimed they "double lunged". Once the bloodtrail went for more than 100 yards, I generally knew that the shot was a little low and a little far back...easy to do if the deer is angled even the slightest towards you. While the hit still looks "right behind the front shoulder" and it is, many times it's below and behind the lungs. If it's close, it generally mean a liver hit, which while still a fatal shot, means the animal will go farther and leave less of a bloodtrail. As I said, broadheads do no more damage to lungs as a .223, even if it does not expand, and a deer will succumb before 100 yards....much less 1/4 mile. A lung shot deer will blow blood out both holes, plus it's nose and mouth as it runs with a lung shot. Leaving a bloodtrail anyone could follow. I remember back in the sixties when M-1 Carbines were $99 and folks coluld only get surplus FMJ ammo for them. Even tho it was not legal to hunt with FMJs folks did. It did not matter on heart and lung shots, it was marginal hits when no expansion led to a long bloodtrail or lost animal.

The main thing is, the OP got his deer. His lost confidence in the 70 gr Barnes is probably the main reason to stop using them as opposed to thinking they always fail. The TSX bullets have a very good reputation for killing deer, even when used in .223.

 

[ridgerunner1965]

good convo and info on this subject.

ive killed several deer with the 223 but always at short medium ranges with well placed shots. but ive never had supreme confidence in it.

last nite something happened that changed how i viewed somewhat lite calibers and hunting with them.

i was hunting with my 243 and huge buck came out, the largest ive ever seen.he was 250 yrds plus and not sticking around.i shot and then shot again.

now mind you i have supreme confidence in my 243 as it has killed dozens of deer over the 30 yrs ive owned it.

one shot went thru the lungs and the other grazed the heart.he went about 60 yrds out of my sight and died.

when i got up to the deer he was massive, well over 200lbs, huge 10 pt rack and massive neck, heavily muscled and fat.

as i stood there looking at him i remember thinking "thank gawd i had enuf gun".

to be honest i never would of even takin the shot if i was hunting with my 223. as it was the 243 performed well but there was no blood trail because of his heavy layer of fat. there were 2 quarter sized exits in the rib cage.

if i would not of taken the shot i would of missed out on the biggest deer i have ever seen.if i would of taken the shot with the 223 and he got away into the thick brush that he ended up on the edge of,i truly would of felt like the worlds biggest ****heel.

thats just my take on the 223 thing

 

[splattergun]

Well as I said earlier I have no doubt with the ability of 223 to take deer but the big ol bodied buck I shot just kept on trucking. Felt pretty bad after gutting it and saw little to no expansion and how this was the opposite of a quick clean kill. I will never allow this to happen again.

I'll second that motion.

 

[JimKirk]

Know the capabilities of your weapon be it a rifle, bow, Atlatl, Black powder, handgun... make the correct use of the weapon and the correct use of your capabilities ... combine the two and you will be OK...

I would dare say that there have been more deer wounded in my area and lost by folks using a .270 Win than any other cartridge .... the gun is/was capable ... the operators were not ...

 

[ironworkerwill]

Sounds like some states have no mim cal to hunt big game with ....like deer.

Well, some are just very obscure. I guess, technically one could use a 17Hornet in Alabama.

(2)
DEER: (Source outdooralabama.com)
-Rifles using centerfire, mushrooming ammunition.
-Shotguns, 10 gauge or smaller using buckshot, slugs, or single round ball.
-Air powered guns, .30 caliber or larger.
-Muzzle-loaders and Black Powder Handguns .40 caliber or larger
-Long bows, compound bows, or crossbows in conformance with 220-2-.03.
-Handguns or pistols using centerfire, mushrooming ammunition.
-Hand thrown spear with sharpened blade in conformance with 220-2-.03.

 

[Panfisher]

Ridgerunner that is the perfect example of when a .223 is not a viable option. Longer range shot, marginal conditions etc. Not for the .223, nor for a Muzzle Loader or even an iron sighted .30-30. The parameters of where a .223 (or any .224 caliber) will work is like a cone, when you move up to bigger/more powerful cartridges the cone gets larger. The size of the cone changes with many things, bullet, shooter capability, weather conditions, terrain etc. However as someone pointed out once you lose confidence in a cartridge, bullet, scope, rifle etc. you are done with it and should move on.

If it were all about pure performance we would all be packing .30-378 Mags. Win mags.

 

[MCgunner]

In the woods here, if I had to limit to one rifle for deer/hogs, it'd be my inline 209 primed CVA Wolf. It's very accurate, very powerful to 100 yards, and we do have an extended "black powder" season here that doesn't allow cartridge guns to be used.

But, I don't have to limit the rifles I own. I have 21 long guns, not one is a .223. I have no use for a .223 since I'm not a varmint hunter. I'm man enough to shoot a real rifle at deer and hogs. I was man enough when I was age 11 to shoot a .257 Roberts. I wasn't allowed to hunt deer until I was man enough to handle it and I was good enough of a marksman to routinely head shoot squirrel at 50 yards with my .22.

I'll say again why people insist on pushing the .223 beyond its capability....the AR15. Even with the AR, there are options, .300 BLK being what I'd choose. So, I just don't get it, I suppose. But, I never did jump on the AR bandwagon, don't like the ergos for field use and don't shoot 3 gun.

 

[Panfisher]

That's cool that you were that much of a man at 11, I had to make do with a .30-30 for a year, then a .30-06 and then a 7 Mag by 15 so what. Nothing about shooting any particular cartridge makes anyone more or less of a man. As for the .223 being beyond its limits, don't tell the deer or they might stop dying.

 

[natman]

Not me. But a 308 would have killed the deer with any decent bullet.

The bullet he used acted just like a .308 FMJ ... which is not a decent bullet for deer.

I'm not sure what your point is, but I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood mine. Which was if the OP had used a 308 with a standard cup and core bullet he would have had a clean kill without having to worry about having the perfect bullet. If you have to use just the right exotic bullet to get a clean kill on a deer, it's a pretty good sign you're not using enough cartridge.

 

[Panfisher]

Lest anyone think that I am the poster child for hunting deer with a .223 let say that many, hell most centerfire rifle rounds are better suited to hunting deer. But to think that the .223 properly loaded won't do it is simply false. I knew a lot of folks who thought the .243 was barely enough for coyotes and insufficient for deer. As you go to smaller diameter bullets it is for sure that you need to pay more attention to the bullet selection and bullet placement. I will likely go hunting in the morning, undecided if I will take my R15 or my wife's .243 rather than dig something else out of the safe.

 

[MCgunner]

That's cool that you were that much of a man at 11, I had to make do with a .30-30 for a year, then a .30-06 and then a 7 Mag by 15 so what. Nothing about shooting any particular cartridge makes anyone more or less of a man. As for the .223 being beyond its limits, don't tell the deer or they might stop dying.

The point is that if I could handle a decent caliber at age 11, recoil isn't a good enough reason to use a .223, whether a kid or a full grown adult. If you're such a wuss you can't handle a .30-30 or a .243, maybe you should stick to .22s and squirrels. If I'm ever handicapped to the point I can't shoot my .257, I'll just quit hunting, take up bridge or dominoes or something. My passion is waterfowl. 12 and 10 gauges with heavy steel shot loads kick a lot more'n most rifles and I'll unleash 15 rounds, usually, on a limit of ducks.

 

[Panfisher]

I fully understand recoil, grew up with old Mil surp rifles, 7 & 8mm mausers, .303 British, and the worst a 7.7 Jap. have done my time with fire breathing magnums but hey if all you can handle is a .257 then by all means use it. I would much rather squirrel hunt than deer hunt but it has more to do with way too many people approaching deer hunting like it was a bass tournament, bigger, faster, go hard, more expensive toys, treating it like a full time job. As for kids, women, etc. I have no problem starting them with smaller caliber rifles so they don't develop finches and poor shooting techniques. Would rather them kill a deer with a .223 than flinch and put a .30 cal from an 06 through their guts.