223 for deer update

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These .223 on deer threads are getting silly. Yes, Yes I know your 8 year old son/daughter droped a truck load of deer with a .223. But how many got away?
The crips are never talked about. Just the kills.
IMO if you can't handle a .243 you should not be big game hunting.
Yeah I know it's a AR thing. Never saw a thread about hunting with a .220 swift:)
 
Sorry my son has never shot a deer with a .223 only with a .243 and 7-08. No one argues the ability of the .22-250 or .220.swift to kill deer. Just the same bullets traveling faster. The only deer I ever shot and lost was with a .30-06 not the rifles fault simply a very bad shot on my part. What is silly is when those who say a .223 won't reliably kill deer get all defensive when shown otherwise. I will leave this topic with one reiteration of things already said. No one is saying that the .223 is the best deer round out there, it's not, it's barely enough, but when used within its restrictions (range, bullet choice and placement, )it is more than able to take deer cleanly.
 
Natman...

I'm not sure what your point is, but I'm pretty sure you've misunderstood mine. Which was if the OP had used a 308 with a standard cup and core bullet he would have had a clean kill without having to worry about having the perfect bullet. If you have to use just the right exotic bullet to get a clean kill on a deer, it's a pretty good sign you're not using enough cartridge.
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My point was well stated ... not sure how you misunderstood ... The OP 70 gr TSX bullet acted just like a .308 with a Full Metal Jacket bullet would have ... drilled right through the deer with out expanding.

My point was the wrong bullet in either caliber ... is the wrong bullet ...

He chose a cartridge that was already near the lower limit of deer... then made a wrong choice of bullet ... nothing you say or do will change that fact ...

He would have had a much better chance IF he had made the right choice ... he used what he used ... all the if and buts will not change that fact ....
 
JimKirk said:
Natman...

My point was well stated ... not sure how you misunderstood ... The OP 70 gr TSX bullet acted just like a .308 with a Full Metal Jacket bullet would have ... drilled right through the deer with out expanding.

My point was the wrong bullet in either caliber ... is the wrong bullet ...

He chose a cartridge that was already near the lower limit of deer... then made a wrong choice of bullet ... nothing you say or do will change that fact ...

He would have had a much better chance IF he had made the right choice ... he used what he used ... all the if and buts will not change that fact ....
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Not trying to change any facts. IMO he started with the wrong cartridge and then apparently made it worse by using the wrong bullet.

My only point is that if he'd used a better cartridge to begin with bullet selection wouldn't have been so critical. Fair enough?
 
No one argues the ability of the .22-250 or .220.swift to kill deer.
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Well, I would argue the wisdom of shooting such a tiny bullet at ANY velocity given the better choices in 6mm and up, but I know .22-250 in Texas is a popular round especially for the recoil shy or the very young, if you wanna start your kid off at age 5 or something. :rolleyes: Then, too, hill country deer in particular, especially up around Mason and Llano, are about the size of a Labrador retriever, not that tough to put down.

Suit yourself, but don't try to tell me the .223 is a great deer caliber. I know better. It can result in long tracking with no blood trail as the OP found out, even lost deer. Even a bow is a better choice IMHO. At least it leaves a blood trail Stevie Wonder could follow.
 
I would never try to convince you or anyone else that a .223 is a good deer round hell I don't even classify I r as mediocre, it is pretty well at the bottom of acceptable choices.if the last 6 years or so of working a special hunt where handicapped hunters get to shoot deer are a valid comparison, then by far the biggest wonder is a .30-06 Longest and most tracks have come from that round. But I know better it's their shooting abilities combined with the fact that it is the most common round at the hunts. By far most long tracks, wounded and lost animals are caused by poor shooting with a smattering of equipment failure, wrong ammo choice and sometimes just plain bad luck. From my experience the folks who routinely kill deer with 5hings like a .223 will routinely kill deer with about any rifle you give them. I consider a .243 to be a better kids deer rifle and the .223 to belong in the hands of a good shot/hunter as it requires more attention to details of ammo and shot placement, and shot selection or even more important decision to pass up the shot.
 
If you think these threads are redundant, stay out of them.

New hunters show up every year. They ask about new things, wanting answers. So, some ask about the oh-so-popular .223. The purpose of this forum (and all the others, as well) is to provide answers.

YOU think "redundant"? Hey, I've been moderating hunting forums since 1999. :D
 
MCgunner said:
Not to mention redundant. It's the hunting board's version of 9mm vs .45ACP or Glock vs 1911, except that you're hunting game and I always prefer to be shooting a more powerful round than is necessary rather than an under-powered round that MIGHT be adequate with the right magic bullet.
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Agreed. I don't hunt deer but I do hunt a similar size animal -caribou.
After years of successfully useing a 30-06 I switched to a .300 WBY.
Why? It hits harder and shoots flatter. Advantage me.
Why handicap yourself hunting? I've never felt recoil while shooting at game.
But I am neither a infant or a fragile adult that needs a .223 so I don't think my experience counts here.
 
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well i shot a doe at 150 yards Sunday. 60 grain hornady soft point max load with CFE 223. It did ok..... Not much damage inside, middle of the lungs shot, just not a big bullet, it passed through and expanded a bit ( maybe a lot for a .22 cal bullet) it ran and died about 50-75 yrds. I can see by the small wound channel there is NO room for error.

P.S. i took the .223 as i had my ar-10 in .308 and decided to walk to where i seen them bedded behind a pond damn, it was a 3/4 mile walk one way. Didnt wanna carry that heavy ar-10 ( 18.5lbs) that far so i took the truck gun. 18" bbl AR-15.
 
.223 for deer is not ideal, IMO. That being said, I saw a spike taken at about 50 yards with an ideal shot, Win 64 grain SP, Power Point. Five steps and down. FWIW. YMMV.
 
Jim In Anchorage said
The crips are never talked about. Just the kills.
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I hae recovered EVERY deer I have shot with a .223. I don't talk about the cripples, becasuse there hasn't been any. Every deer I've shot at with a .223 has ended up in my freezer, zero exceptions.
But I am neither a infant or a fragile adult that needs a .223 so I don't think my experience counts here.
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And not everyone needs a Weatherby magnum with a smaller gun gets the same results with less noise, recoil, cost, etc. I didn;t know huting was about shooting the biggest gun you possibly can to prove how manly you are....I thought it was about ethically harvesting game in a lawful manner? In that regard, my .223 has killed the deer I've shot with it equally as dead as those shot with my 7Mag. Wanting variety or using less than the biggest cannon one can shoulder doesn't make one any less of a man or hunter. I CAN shoot a magnum rifle at deer-sized game, but experience has told me repeatedly it simply isn't a necessity, and my tags only go unfilled by choice....
 
More anecdotal: A guy I sold an AR in 5.56, also a co-worker, shot a nice buck 2 weeks ago with "Hog Hammer" factory ammunition.

He said " The buck hit the ground and died instantly, I thought. It lie motionless for a

few seconds, suddenly started kicking, then got up and ran off". I asked about the shot

distance, " Bout 150 yds, the whole known length of the greenfield from the stand to the

wood line". " I felt sick, we tracked the deer until the blood ran out, we never found it''.

"The blood trail was dark red and thick".


He also admitted that he thought about shooting it again once it went down. In my opinion he wasn't that confident to begin with. He probably clipped a portion of the liver by the description of the blood. In summary, he was under gunned and probably pulled the shot.
 
Davek1977 said:
Jim In Anchorage said
I hae recovered EVERY deer I have shot with a .223. I don't talk about the cripples, becasuse there hasn't been any. Every deer I've shot at with a .223 has ended up in my freezer, zero exceptions.
And not everyone needs a Weatherby magnum with a smaller gun gets the same results with less noise, recoil, cost, etc. I didn;t know huting was about shooting the biggest gun you possibly can to prove how manly you are....I thought it was about ethically harvesting game in a lawful manner? In that regard, my .223 has killed the deer I've shot with it equally as dead as those shot with my 7Mag. Wanting variety or using less than the biggest cannon one can shoulder doesn't make one any less of a man or hunter. I CAN shoot a magnum rifle at deer-sized game, but experience has told me repeatedly it simply isn't a necessity, and my tags only go unfilled by choice....
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So by useing a 30-06 or .300 mag I am just being "manly"? Are we all supposed to hunt with under powered guns to prove what?
I love bow hunting and accept a bows limitions. When rifle season comes around I pick the best tool. And that's not a .223.
 
I killed a couple deer with the 223. Killed no differently than my 30 30. One went about 50 yards and the other never took a step. Different deer with different shots one was a lung shot and the other was a head shot. For a good shooter with patience and restraint the 223 will surely kill well and quickly. Is it my normal deer rifle? No it is not.
 
My friend killed his deer with a .223 and I killed mine with a .270. Both dropped on the spot with well placed shots. My friend would like a .270, but only has access to a .223 at the moment. Good shots are must for me. I try to be very patient and wait for the shot to materialize. That strategy has served me well from squirrels to deer.
 
I shot a wall hanger a couple of weeks ago. Severe quartering away angle at about 75 yards through pines. Two hours later I walked over and found hair. Found a big blood pool about 50 yards away and then started trailing. I trailed for about 300 yards down to the creek and backed off. We went back an hour later and trailed him another 3-400 yards before we lost the blood trail. I tracked him by following game trails until I found a small drop of blood on a briar in some planted pines. I crawled on hands and knees for almost an hour before I finally found him.

As far as I could tell the bullet hit the rear rib and deflected downward causing a serious gut shot. The angle SHOULD have sent the bullet behind his ribs, straight up through heart and lungs...but it didn't. I think I must have bumped him out of the creek on my first try, two hours after the shot, because he was not stiff when I found him.

I have never had a deer run more than 100-150 yards with a double lung shot. I have had sparse blood trails after such a shot, probably because the deer covered 100 yards in about 5 seconds.

The bad shot was a 165 Grain Nosler in 30-06.
 
Shot placement is everything no matter what you shoot. And bullet selection. In the case of the .223 you need to use a high velocity round. I read the original research into how the military came up with the round. Useing heavier harder bullets actually decreases it's effectiveness. I have shoot some big deer including a 14 point 250 lb Minnesota buck with one. The 55 gr soft point bullet works great with a lug or heart hit. It turns the organs into mush. If you use a bullet too slow or too heavy it won't work as well. I stay away from heavy bullets in the .223. If you are going slower and heavier or cannot place your shots exactly you should go with a bigger caliber. Nearly any centerfire round will kill deer but some have a narrower operating range. Some require more skill, be it getting closer or narrow range of velocity, or even more precise and limited shots. I guess in doubt use a 30-06. That's never wrong. Luckily we have choices.
 
jrdolall said:
I shot a wall hanger a couple of weeks ago. Severe quartering away angle at about 75 yards through pines. Two hours later I walked over and found hair. Found a big blood pool about 50 yards away and then started trailing. I trailed for about 300 yards down to the creek and backed off. We went back an hour later and trailed him another 3-400 yards before we lost the blood trail. I tracked him by following game trails until I found a small drop of blood on a briar in some planted pines. I crawled on hands and knees for almost an hour before I finally found him.

As far as I could tell the bullet hit the rear rib and deflected downward causing a serious gut shot. The angle SHOULD have sent the bullet behind his ribs, straight up through heart and lungs...but it didn't. I think I must have bumped him out of the creek on my first try, two hours after the shot, because he was not stiff when I found him.

I have never had a deer run more than 100-150 yards with a double lung shot. I have had sparse blood trails after such a shot, probably because the deer covered 100 yards in about 5 seconds.

The bad shot was a 165 Grain Nosler in 30-06.
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What kind of Nosler? The partition fired out of a 30-06 has been my bread and butter for 40 years and I can't picture one being deflected by a rib. Even on moose.
 
My limited experience is that the 223 works very well on the smallish coastal deer we have here. I bought my grandson a little youth single shot 223 for his 10th birthday. Two days later he made a DRT shot. He got two more that year. One was DRT one did a 40 yard death dash. Last year he got two. Again one was DRT and one did a short death dash. All of those were with 62 grain Fusion ammo. I took him hunting Thanksgiving day. This time he was using some of my 60 grain Partition handloads. 20 minutes after I put him in the stand, I heard his rifle crack. This deer too did a death dash. The bullet left a quarter sized hole going in, broke a rib, wrecked the heart and lungs, broke a rib exiting and left a half dollar sized hole. There was plenty of blood. I have shot deer in the same spot with a 22-250, 243, 257R, 30-06, 35 Whelen, 44 Magnum and 45-70. Unless I involved shoulder bone, none were DRT and none souped up the vitals any more significantly. The 223 with good bullets is a fantastic deer round. With a young shooter, the mild recoil isn't likely to cause bad flinch habits. My grandson has certainly turned into a good shot. The 223 has limitations. When I hunt in thick woods, I don't like it. I want to break at least one shoulder to minimize chances that they will run off into the thick stuff in failing light. As warm as it often is down here, if you lose a deer at night, it can be spoiled by morning...or coyote food. At sub optimal angles, the 223 is less than ideal for breaking shoulders and wrecking vitals too.
 
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What kind of Nosler? The partition fired out of a 30-06 has been my bread and butter for 40 years and I can't picture one being deflected by a rib. Even on moose.
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Jim,

The round I use is a Federal Premium 165 grain Nosler Partition. I have used this round for several years and killed quite a few deer with it and never had an issue so I don't know why this particular animal was different. It was a shot I am comfortable making, especially at that distance, and I have dropped several bucks within ten yards of this spot as they always have scrapes and rubs in the area. He was working a scrape when I shot him. The entry wound was exactly where I expected but the bullet did not continue straight into the vitals rather it appeared to be deflected downward. The hair at the spot was white and it was a severe gut shot.
 
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