223 load experimentation

[moxie]

Removal often disturbs the anvil resulting in decreased reliability. They sometimes also fit too loose when reused. Identity can also be a problem. You don't know what kind of primers you have there, do you.

Why live primers in dummy rounds?

 

[tyeo098]

Off to the range today with an assortment of rounds.
I have:
5 cases FC with pulled Amerc primer
5 cases FC with Wincester SRP
5 cases LC-12 with Amerc primer
5 cases LC-12 Win SRP
5 cases PMC with Amerc primer
5 cases PMC with Win SRP

This should tell me whats up.

 

[tyeo098]

The results are in!

Heres the primers, pulled on the left, Winchester SRP on the right.

FC: http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130802_001148_zps6e641794.jpg.html
LC12: http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130802_001133_zps50df5a1b.jpg.html
PMC: http://s154.photobucket.com/user/tyeo098/media/20130802_001110_zpsba3eee1c.jpg.html

 

[788Ham]

If you think you've saved enough monies, to scrimp on the junked cases/rounds, and are saving the bullets and powder to reload into other brass, fine. BUT, junk the old primers too, throw them away, buy new primers ! When you've blown your fingers, or hand all to hell, you'll have a lot of recuperation to time to stare at that mangled hand and look back at this thread wondering, "Why didn't I listen to those guys!" Maybe you've got all of the answers in your mind, if so, why ask us then?

 

[tyeo098]

If you think you've saved enough monies, to scrimp on the junked cases/rounds, and are saving the bullets and powder to reload into other brass, fine.

Tell me where to fine 1000 rounds of 223 for 100 bucks, then we can discuss 'saving' money.

BUT, junk the old primers too, throw them away, buy new primers ! When you've blown your fingers, or hand all to hell, you'll have a lot of recuperation to time to stare at that mangled hand and look back at this thread wondering, "Why didn't I listen to those guys!" Maybe you've got all of the answers in your mind, if so, why ask us then?

No one has yet to convince me that popping primers out will cause me to lose my hand. The only convincing argument anyone has made was Moxie in stating there may be decreased reliability. (Which I have not experienced)

Heck, there are even threads here on THR which say there is no harm in reusing primers! :
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-385127.html
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-675571.html

 

[tyeo098]

Last night I worked up a load range from 23.5gr to 25.5gr in .5gr increments, shot them today at the range.

Also last night I went over my rifle with a fine toothed comb, and found enough carbon buildup to have the DI's at boot camp giving me enough pushups to have me set for the rest of my life.

So I cleaned that, and lubed it according to the lube guide on ARFCOM

Second thing I did was switch from my off-brand 10rd mag to my one (and only) PMAG.

All rounds I had loaded cycled without issue, I even had some accuracy!
A few short stroks did show up again with a few AMERC 'factory' rounds I have stashed away.
I was out of reloads so I could not see if it was carbon build-up or just the rounds being garbage.

Felt like an idiot when I showed up at the range, I had left my targets on my printer at the office!
I rummaged though the trash bin and found some partially unused sections of paper targets, drew my own 1"ish circle, and went to town.

All rounds shot at 50yds. (indoor range)



and I'm still here

 

[hpluseleven]

Those two threads you reference about reusing primers are both talking about straight up reloads with (presumably) known components. Not breaking down factory ammo. As has been stated previously, there is no way to know why that ammo got rejected at the factory.


I'm not going to convince you that you're going to blow your hand/fingers off and frankly I don't care. Personally, I wouldn't be taking the risks that you are.

 

[Kernel]

I don’t see anything particularly alarming, unique, or unsafe in what you’re doing. As mentioned, you’re essentially making “Mexican match” ammo, a common accepted practice popular with high volume competition shooters for at least the last 50 years.

Could be your flat primers are a result of a wet chamber. Degrease with some proper solvent. Make sure your ammo isn’t to oily. It can be wiped down with a solvent dampened rag as well.

 

[tyeo098]

I don’t see anything particularly alarming, unique, or unsafe in what you’re doing. As mentioned, you’re essentially making “Mexican match” ammo, a common accepted practice popular with high volume competition shooters for at least the last 50 years.

That's what I've been saying this entire thread lol. Thank you for understanding

Could be your flat primers are a result of a wet chamber. Degrease with some proper solvent. Make sure your ammo isn’t to oily. It can be wiped down with a solvent dampened rag as well.

Noted, but in my previous post I had shot the same loads side by side in WIN SRP and they did not get anywhere near as flat as the AMERC primers.

 

[moxie]

Again, several of us advised you to avoid AMERC ammo and components entirely.

 

[BullfrogKen]

And in our previous posts we had said how AMERC ammo is complete garbage. The fact that piece of .... work .... company rejected them should have been a clue.


Garbage in, garbage out.


Hey, it's not like I haven't dropped $100.00 on a mistake before. I've dropped much more than that, too.

It's a sunk cost. Stop trying to polish a turd, drop off the spent brass at a recycler, and move on. There is no good reason to fart around with crap like AMERC, anything AMERC, as a handloader.

Again, I would not put it past them to load .223 with a small pistol primer.


But hey, go forth my young friend and do whatever you want. No matter how many others caution you against it, keep searching for someone to tell you what you're doing has merit. You'll find someone.

 

[tyeo098]

And in our previous posts we had said how AMERC ammo is complete garbage.

And thats all I've heard. Heresay. No one in this entire thread has presented ANY factual data why the ammo would be bad/dangerous/etc.

Just the constant repetition of 'Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap Amerc is crap'

With NO data to back up any statements.

The fact that piece of .... work .... company rejected them should have been a clue.
Garbage in, garbage out.

They were visually inspected (and rejected) BY the guy I bought them from. I know exactly why they were rejected, and this was purely because of the case neck being cracked.

But, as I've stated MANY times in this thread (which no one seems to read this part)

I'm not using the Amerc Brass!

Again, I would not put it past them to load .223 with a small pistol primer.

A small PP would not have withstood the pressures being created by the 223 rem round and would easily have pierced/ruptured/backed out completely.

SP primers have a thinner cup because pistols don't hit the primers as hard, operate at lower pressure and usually have less firing pin protrusion.

It's a sunk cost. Stop trying to polish a turd, drop off the spent brass at a recycler, and move on. There is no good reason to fart around with crap like AMERC, anything AMERC, as a handloader.

Statements like these make me think you are not even understanding what I am trying to accomplish.

No matter how many others caution you against it, keep searching for someone to tell you what you're doing has merit. You'll find someone.

You mean like Kernel?

I don’t see anything particularly alarming, unique, or unsafe in what you’re doing.

 

[moxie]

I have personal experience with AMERC.

Primers seated incorrectly. Flash holes off center. Varying brass thickness around the case mouth. Case mouth not "square." Irregular rims, etc.

This translates to "AMERC is crap." Most folks have been savvy to this for a long time. I think you even had some short strokes with AMERC components. That's factual.

 

[tyeo098]

I have personal experience with AMERC.

Primers seated incorrectly. Flash holes off center. Varying brass thickness around the case mouth. Case mouth not "square." Irregular rims, etc.

This translates to "AMERC is crap." Most folks have been savvy to this for a long time. I think you even had some short strokes with AMERC components. That's factual.

I've seen many primers seated upside down, they pop out like all the others.

And again,

Please read this part:

They were visually inspected (and rejected) BY the guy I bought them from. I know exactly why they were rejected, and this was purely because of the case neck being cracked.

But, as I've stated MANY times in this thread (which no one seems to read this part)

I'm not using the Amerc Brass!

I had it in bold, maybe it needs to be bigger:

I'm not using the Amerc Brass

Mods, please tell me if I'm getting out of line. I generally dislike repeating/quoting myself once, much less multiple times.

 

[moxie]

But you are using the primers and powder from the AMERC rounds, the rejects. My point in describing the brass defects is to show the lack of quality of AMERC products in general. In #31 above you yourself pointed out short stroking with AMERC factory rounds. What more factual data does one need to conclude that AMERC is shoddy stuff? But press on. You asked for advice and reject it. Cool. Press on.

 

[tyeo098]

But you are using the primers and powder from the AMERC rounds, the rejects. My point in describing the brass defects is to show the lack of quality of AMERC products in general.

This is why I am reweighing and rethrowing the charges.
The primers I'll give you, but 100% of them have gone bang.

In #31 above you yourself pointed out short stroking with AMERC factory rounds. What more factual data does one need to conclude that AMERC is shoddy stuff?

I also describe how it could have been carbon buildup, and noted in a previous post that my rifle was short stroking on EVERY round.

The rifle I am using is also the only rifle I use my 22 conversion kit in. 22LR is not clean stuff, and I believe that it may have gunked up my gas tube to the point where weak rounds (like some of the undercharged AMERC stuff) would not cycle the gun correctly.

 

[BullfrogKen]

AMERC ammo is crap and even the simplest of Internet searches would have netted you pages of warnings about just how crappy that crap is. People with far more experience than you have attempted to wave you off from your flight path. You made a decision to listen only to the advice you want to hear and bicker with everyone else.

There are times in my life when I've seen friends reject sound advice to go down paths I refuse to follow.



So i guess I'll play along.



Go do whatever you want. I'm sure it will work out fine.

 

[tyeo098]

AMERC ammo is crap and even the simplest of Internet searches would have netted you pages of warnings about just how crappy that crap is.

This is true, but it is of their factory loads shot as is

People are complaining of squibs, double loads, undercharges, etc, all of which is mooted when I am pulling them for components.

I'm not asking anyone to follow me, I opened this thread with a simple question: "Do these primers look flat to you?"

 

[BullfrogKen]

You had more than flattened primers there.

You had pierced primers.


But hey, that doesn't really matter. You know what you're doing anyway, right? Who needs a chronograph. Who really needs to know what powder that is. Or what kind of primers those are.



Good job. Keep it up. Go you.

 

[Kernel]

You could of bought pulled bullets off of Gun Broker and no one would of batted an eye. Plinker fodder, no one expects match accuracy.

You could of bought surplus powder of unknown origin and everyone would of thought, “Smart move. Saved a buck, and it’s hard to find any powder in these tough times.” Start low and work up.

You could of bought generic no-name primers off the internet and people would of thought, “Primers! Man I wish I could get my hands on some primers. They’re rarer than hen’s teeth.” Even if one in a hundred don’t go “bang” they're better than nothing.

Instead you bought a bunch of reject ammo, pulled all the components, discarded the bad and keep what looked to be functional. Other than the money your saved, what’s the difference?

 

[v8stang289]

My question is, How can you be sure the powder in the rounds is from the same lot, and has the same consistency?

If you're just transferring bullet, powder, and primer from one case to the next then you'll probably be fine. But if you pull the bullets, dump all the powder together, and then redistribute it you could be asking for trouble. If the powder is for some reason not uniform you could have one round with excess pressure and another with too little pressure, even though they have the same amount of powder.

That would be my biggest concern with what you are doing.

 

[tyeo098]

My question is, How can you be sure the powder in the rounds is from the same lot, and has the same consistency?

I can't.

But if you pull the bullets, dump all the powder together, and then redistribute it you could be asking for trouble. If the powder is for some reason not uniform you could have one round with excess pressure and another with too little pressure, even though they have the same amount of powder.

That is the reason for dumping the powder, to create a uniform powder by mixing them all together. This way all the rounds perform exactly the same.

Lot to lot variations would not be enough to cause a KB, especially when I'm running average nowhere-near-max loads.