223 loading FPS spread?

[Charlie98]

Some powders are quite picky about primers...

I'll expand on this a little.

I use H335 for my 5.56mm blasting powder, most data suggests a Magnum primer to ensure proper ignition because it's a ball powder. I ran an informal test, everything equal except I used CCI 400 and 450 primers, in 2 different rifles (a 16" and a 20".) 23.5grn H335 under a 69grn SMK. The standard primer provided lower ES and higher velocity in both rifles, vs the recommended Magnum primer. None of the variances were triple digits, and I would have been surprised if they had been. The Standard primer in the 20" barrel cut the ES in half.... 31fps vs 16fps. I did not test for accuracy... simply velocity variations.

I've also seen an extreme case with TAC in the .308. Same basic exercise as above, but I was shooting for accuracy, not measuring velocity. Standard CCI 200's vs Arsenal #34's, with a 168grn SMK, out of my 24" Savage model 10. It was obvious the Arsenal primers (very similar to a Magnum primer) opened my groups up by about 1" at 50yds.... no kidding.

Magnum primers are suggested for big charges of ball powder to ensure ignition in temperature extremes, among other things, they are not necessarily the best choice when you are looking for accuracy. That is not to say a Mangum primer can't give you good.... or better... results with any particular load workup, every rifle is different.


loading 223 with AA2230. tried both CCI small rifle primers and N0-41 primers

It's good that you tried something different to see, but, given your results, I really think that fast powder, with a heavy bullet, Magnum primer or not... there is something really wrong.

 

[ballman6711]

I'm setting on 69.9# right now... but I've bought 3 8#'ers in the past 6 months or so.

You are my new new hero, lol!

In all seriousness, I thought I had a good bit of powder, but you and @AJC1 both put me to shame. I really need to step up my game!

chris

 

[Charlie98]

In all seriousness, I thought I had a good bit of powder, but you and @AJC1 both put me to shame. I really need to step up my game!

In all seriousness...

1) I intend to pare that down to, what I hope, would be just 4 8# kegs (Unique, IMR4227, IMR4198, TAC) and maybe a # or 2 of other specialty powders (think W296.) I don't like having all that powder on hand, and I don't like having a bunch of powders I don't use... my situation right now.

2) With powders one must have primers! As you scale up your powder inventory, make sure you match it with an appropriate amount of primers.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

I really think that fast powder, with a heavy bullet, Magnum primer or not... there is something really wrong.

I think the answer, or at least a good part of it, can be found in this sentence.

Try a slower powder with the heavier bullet. Or, try a lighter bullet with the faster powder.

 

[ballman6711]

I am also working on paring down my powder supply. I had 32# about six months ago, but traded an 8# jug for primers. I have plenty of primers for the powder I have.

To the OP, as others have suggested try a different bullet or a different powder. I've had decent results with IMR 3031 and a 55gr FMJ. About 1.5" at 75yds if I do my part, and it's an AR with open sights.

chris

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

To the OP, as others have suggested try a different bullet or a different powder. I've had decent results with IMR 3031 and a 55gr FMJ. About 1.5" at 75yds if I do my part, and it's an AR with open sights.

Funny you would mention 3031.

I was reading an early 1960s article about the development of the .223, not yet the 5.56x45.

Remington started with a 55 gr bullet, and a power very similar to 4198. They had good results, but couldn't get the velocity the Military was demanding.
Remington went next to 3031, but again couldn't fit enough powder in the case to get it moving fast enough.

Several iterations of slower and slower extruded powder later, they finally went with a ball powder - and that starts a completely different story.

 

[Charlie98]

Remington went next to 3031, but again couldn't fit enough powder in the case to get it moving fast enough.

I love IMR rifle powders... just not in the 5.56mm. You can use a long drop tube, or you can vibrate the full case to settle the extruded sticks down... but it's a tight fit regardless.

 

[AJC1]

You are my new new hero, lol!

In all seriousness, I thought I had a good bit of powder, but you and @AJC1 both put me to shame. I really need to step up my game!

chris

Most of that is singles for testing. Haven't been in the game long enough. When this powder is gone I'm buying
1. An 8 of blue dot
2. An 8 of 4064 or varget... I have 14 ish pounds now.
3. An 8 of some kinda 4350 for 7.7 and 6.5x55 haven't even started testing those.
4. I use a lot of Silhouette and I have 16lbs still at dad's. That will be my 4.

 

[Charlie98]

John, I would think BlueDot and Silhouette are pretty darned close...? Is that not the case?

Hey... you're going to need something for those .30-30's!

 

[Nature Boy]

N135 n140, imr 4064 reliader 15, and many more.

….like Varget and H4895

 

[AJC1]

John, I would think BlueDot and Silhouette are pretty darned close...? Is that not the case?

Hey... you're going to need something for those .30-30's!

Silhouette is a medium fast pistol powder and blue dot is a fast magnum. 8.4 grain load vs 10.6. 15.8 of bd is fun as heck in the 30-30 and 26 grains of tac is good as well. I haven't tested varget or 4064 in it yet but once everything else is gone that's the plan. Hugger shoots a lot of 4064 in his 94.

 

[rparker1866]

the dillion guys just explained something i didnt know.
i have mixed head stamps. some are 556.
and he said to try and seat it a little deeper.
if i seat the bullet to the candler its OAL is 22.35.
i seated them to 22.55 ignored the candler
thanks all for the replys

 

[ballman6711]

I love IMR rifle powders... just not in the 5.56mm. You can use a long drop tube, or you can vibrate the full case to settle the extruded sticks down... but it's a tight fit regardless.

I use a powder thrower to drop it in the pan, then weigh it, then a small aluminum funnel to pour it into the case. No bridging, and it seems to settle it fairly well. It certainly isn't compressed. The end result is good enough for me.

I can't give a velocity because I don't have a chrono, and any number I come up with would just be a guess.

chris

 

[EricBu]

hello
loading 223 with AA2230. tried both CCI small rifle primers and N0-41 primers
16 in barrel. tried 22 gr of AA2230 to 24 grains with the 77 gr boat tail hollow point.
i am getting 150 to 200 FPS Spread. 2818 to 2614.
the 2 grain differance does not make any differance with FPS.
what FPS spread should you be looking for?

thanks

Need more information. If you are using mixed range brass/mixed civilian and mil, and it's not been trimmed to a consistent length...that is a totally reasonable extreme spread....plus that's not the greatest powder for 223 heavies. I prefer Reloader 15 for my heavies, but there is a lot of options out there. Shooter's World Precision also works well in that application, comparable to varget.

 

[Hooda Thunkit]

I love IMR rifle powders... just not in the 5.56mm. You can use a long drop tube, or you can vibrate the full case to settle the extruded sticks down... but it's a tight fit regardless.

I don't load 5.56, but I do load 223 Rem. I've had very good results with I4895.

However, I prefer to save that powder for other uses.

 

[AJC1]

the dillion guys just explained something i didnt know.
i have mixed head stamps. some are 556.
and he said to try and seat it a little deeper.
if i seat the bullet to the candler its OAL is 22.35.
i seated them to 22.55 ignored the candler
thanks all for the replys

Mixed brass introduces a bunch of variables. The most important is case volume which will result in pressure variations. The second factor is neck tension variation. In the big picture mixed brass will give variations depending on how you sort. I highly recommend you sort 223, from 5.56 and see how that changes your results. I would also seat heavies at full mag length which should be in the region on 2.260. That will align your cannalure most likely.

 

[joneb]

Mixed brass introduces a bunch of variables.

That would be a understatement.

 

[AJC1]

That would be a understatement.

I try to be sensitive to questions as the former me was a scpo who was absolute. But yes it's a big deal.

 

[NuclearMeltdown]

AJC1 said: ↑
Mixed brass introduces a bunch of variables.

That would be a understatement.

An understatement...or a clever double meaning!