CFE-223 Disappointing velocity?.?.?.?

[BigBore45]

Gun: RRA AR-15 18" Barrel chamber 5.56X45

Load: CFE-223 Powder
Speer 50 grain TNT HP
LC Brass
Federal Small Rifle Primer


I started at 27.3 Grains and went up from there with 27.3 grains the velocity was 2783 FPS

Ended up at 28.3 Grains and only had 2912 FPS.

Book showing 3271 FPS at 27 gr. and 3505 FPS at 28.5 gr.

What the heck? Do i need a Magnum Primer? The deviation out of 3 rounds was not bad on any of the strings fired....

 

[readyeddy]

The data is probably for a 24" bolt action gun or universal receiver. AR velocities are usually around 100-150 fps slower with a 20" AR upper. If you shoot an 18" or 16" AR upper, your speeds will be even slower.

 

[BigBore45]

you think that much slower? thats almost 600 FPS. i go from my 26" 308 bolt to my 18" ar-10 and only lose 250ish FPS. depending on bullet.

 

[Driftertank]

A lot of variables effect muzzle velocity, not just barrel length.

Shot some identical loads a few weeks ago in my AR and my girlfriend's Sig 557. Both 16" barrels, but my barrel produced almost 100fps more.

The fact is, you can't put too much faith in the claimed muzzle velocity in manuals. They really only serve as a reference when comparing different ingredients, not a guide to the real life velocities you should expect.

If you really want to see if your velocity stacks up, shoot your Handload against a known factory load. Most mil spec 5.56 loads will run pretty hot.

 

[BigBore45]

well i loaded up some known bullets i have used in the past. with varget in my note book i was 257 FPS off of the book with that same gun. Im going to try the same bullets i used the varget with. did not have any load data for the Speer bullet I'm using. so as i did not see signs of high pressure and had sub standard velocity i believe the bullet is just to different from the load data bullet. I will let you guys know what i get tomorrow.

new to me bullet and powder. guess i have some work to do!

 

[moxie]

You apparently are using the online Hodgdon data. It was developed with a 24" barrel, which will account for significant velocity differences. And their measurement technique also might differ a bit. That 3505 they got might have been with a tailwind downhill. Pretty zippy!

This reinforces the point that the books only start you in the right direction. The only way to be SURE of what your loads are doing in your guns is to chrono them.

 

[BigBore45]

i was using the online data. do not have any books with CFE-223. also used QL to verify pressure. Still i think they would not be that far off the online data. I looked at crony results i had with the same gun shooting 60 gr v-max bullets in front of varget and they are only 257 FPS off the online data. Hodgdons wouldn't lie that much would they?

 

[cfullgraf]

I like to chronograph factory loads in my rifles, preferably with the bullet i want to use but at least the same weight.

It indicates to me if my gun is fast or slow.

With the same ammunition, my Service Rifle match rifle, an AR-15 A2 with a 20" barrel, shoots 200-250 fps faster than my Colt Match Target, also an AR-15 A2 with a 20" barrel.

Published data and actual data can vary greatly.

I have had good success with CFE223 in my 204 Ruger AR-15s and bolt rifles. Accurate and velocities at the level that I am looking for. i have not tried CFE223 in my 223 Remington rifles yet. Too many other projects and I have a great load with AA2230. Why mess with success.

 

[AR-15Nutt]

i used over 24 pounds of CFE223 until the supply dried up and i quit chronographing and went for accuracy, i use 26 Gr. of CFE223, CCI#41 primer, 55 Gr. Hornady FMJBT in my 16" Colt, i do NOT get "sub-zero" accuracy, but that Colt gives me 1.5" groups at 100 yds. consistently, if i had a rock solid rest i bet the groups would shrink to .75" or less. i shoot from a bi-pod and a pistol grip rest, i am pleased with the results and that is all that maters.., right ?

 

[joneb]

That 50gr Speer TNT has a short bearing surface, causing less back pressure for the powder to burn efficiently? More crimp?

 

[BigBore45]

I like to chronograph factory loads in my rifles, preferably with the bullet i want to use but at least the same weight.

It indicates to me if my gun is fast or slow.

With the same ammunition, my Service Rifle match rifle, an AR-15 A2 with a 20" barrel, shoots 200-250 fps faster than my Colt Match Target, also an AR-15 A2 with a 20" barrel.

Published data and actual data can vary greatly.

I have had good success with CFE223 in my 204 Ruger AR-15s and bolt rifles. Accurate and velocities at the level that I am looking for. i have not tried CFE223 in my 223 Remington rifles yet. Too many other projects and I have a great load with AA2230. Why mess with success.

I understand the different guns but knowing my gun 600fps is almost comical compared to other results compared to the book. Has anyone crony'ed cfe223?

 

[GooseGestapo]

BigBore, your results aren't that far off what I'd expect.
Try the Fed. 205 primer.
Temperatures can play a role, too. CFE223 is a bit slow for the 50gr bullet.
I don't think Hodgdon "lied", but it is their observed results under their conditions.
Different lot#'s, equipment; different results, YMMV.

 

[BigBore45]

That 50gr Speer TNT has a short bearing surface, causing less back pressure for the powder to burn efficiently? More crimp?

this maybe on to something. Reason being my gun will never load to max in the book before i show high pressure but even at .3 grains off max with the cfe-223 i had no pressure signs at all like i expected too. headed out today with the 60 grain v-max and CFE-223. can be directly tested against Varget in my notes.

 

[bluetopper]

Figure out what load gives you the best group, THEN bring the chronograph out to the range.

 

[BigBore45]

Figure out what load gives you the best group, THEN bring the chronograph out to the range.

There is a point in velocity that i need to meet for my hunting round. I will find accuracy in more than one place in the load, but first i need velocity that meets my criteria. If it does not. Then i will go back to Varget/4064/benchmark. no big deal i can us the CFE to practice with. To be honest my gun will shoot 3/4" groups with anything and it just tightens up from there. Accuracy is not the goal of this round until velocity can be reached i know the gun will shoot way better than Minute of coyote vitals out to 300 yds with any load i choose.

 

[jmorris]

I think politicians come up with the velocities they publish in reloading books.

What barrel length, twist, action did they use to get the info?

 

[BigBore45]

Ok Test results from different bullets.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

Case LC
Primer Fed. SR
Powder CFE-223

First Load: 50 Gr. V-Max 28.5 Gr. CFE Vel: 3299

Second Test: 50 Grain Speer ( same as OP) 29.0 Gr. CFE Vel: 3252

Third Test: 60 Gr. V-Max 26.7 Gr CFE Vel: 2988

The 60 grain showed high pressure, flat primer and poor ejection (to be expected) Knowing my gun. The 50 Grain Speer had no sign of high pressure and good ejection. The 50 Gr. V-max Had Flat Primer but good ejection, with no other signs of high pressure.

Groups are as follows ( 3 SHOT)

50 gr. v-max 1/2" CTC

50 Gr. speer 7/8" CTC

60 Gr. V-max 5/8" CTC


So Still some tweaking on the 50 gr. speer bullet i suspect it will get a better group at 29.1/.2/.3 gr. If high pressure signs do not arrive first.

 

[bluetopper]

I'm not pleased with its performance out of my 223, 14" Contender barrel. It's hitting 5" lower than any other powder at 100yds.

 

[2ndtimer]

In my experience, CFE-223 is a very good powder for the .223 Rem with bullets 55 gr and up, if you are chasing velocity. With 50 gr and under bullets, I have had better results with faster burning powders with Accurate 2015 being a favorite. I haven't tried H-322, but that might also be a good option for the lighter bullets. Save the CFE-223 and the Varget for the 60 gr and heavier bullets. Just my opinion.

 

[joneb]

So Still some tweaking on the 50 gr. speer bullet

What COL did you try with the 50gr TNT?

 

[BigBore45]

COAL was 2.180

 

[joneb]

COAL was 2.180

At that COL the bullet diameter at the case mouth would be about .218", you would need to seat at the max COL of 2.225" to be at .224" bullet dia. at the case mouth.

 

[readyeddy]

My Sierra manual doesn't list CFE-223 but it does list separate data for 223, one for AR-15 and one for bolt action. The AR is a 20" upper and the bolt action is a 24" Remington 600.

The AR-15 max Varget load for 55 gr. is 27.2 gr. at 3000 fps. The bolt action max Varget load for 55 gr. is 26.9 gr. at 3200 fps. I haven't chronoed the bolt action loads, but the AR load was very close to published.

I think the loss in velocity is a combination of shorter barrel and the bleeding off of gas to cycle the action.

 

[BigBore45]

At that COL the bullet diameter at the case mouth would be about .218", you would need to seat at the max COL of 2.225" to be at .224" bullet dia. at the case mouth.

i noticed this with the good old bench test. still did not effect velocity. I have it more where it should be though. i dont mind being 300 or so fps below the test but the 600 fps was a little ridiculous.

 

[Sommerled]

My results were similar when using CFE223 in my RRA AR15 and 60 grain Nosler BT, my velocity was much less than other powders by 300-400 fps. I use CFE223 now for blasting loads only.