.223 Match Ammo issues

[Lovesbeer99]

So I've tried to load .223 with Winchester and Speer bullets. Both would produce inconsistant results as the bullets are not consistant in the box, they didn't measure the same height. So I bought Hornady 52gr HP/BT Match bullets and I'm still having the same issue. I started to think it was my dies, but I measured the bullets in the box and I got inconsistant results.

I'm I just having bad luck or is this normal? I can understand how 55gr bulk ammo isn't consistant, but I'd figure Match ammo should all measure to the same hight.

Just for the record, the bullets were either 1 size or another. They fell into 2 groups about .05 appart.

Shoot safe -
Lovesbeer99 (I do)

 

[mc223]

What powder, primers, brass etc, are you using?
What rifle are you shooting them from, twist rate, etc?
To accuratly measure bullets, they should be measured from ogive to base. There can easily be .005 difference in length at the meplat.
Seating measurements should be measured from the ogive.

 

[rdaines]

What does "inconsistent results" mean? Groups, velocities...?
If you are using a quality bullet I've found that in some cases powder (type, brand) makes a big difference. However, for .223 I have not found powder to make a huge difference. For me and my .223s, bullet weight was more important.

 

[ocabj]

No bullet manufacturers make bullets that are all going to measure exactly the same for an individual lot, or even a box, to .001" accuracy. Tips and meplats are going to be inconsistent. As mc223 stated, you need to measure to ogive.

Base to ogive is the most important length measurement, and any good quality bullet should have consistent base to ogive measurements.

 

[Bullet]

I agree with using a bullet comparator to measure from the ogive.

I use this one –

http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RESDTCO&item=09-600&type=store

 

[layusn1]

You could always get a meplat uniformer if it bothers you that much but I have had great results with Speer's 52gr HPBT Match bullets. I would assume other big name manufacturer's match bullets should produce similar results.

 

[Howard Roark]

Just to muddy the waters a bit, you can point yer bullets and them trim em.

http://www.whiddengunworks.net/pointingdie.html

 

[NuJudge]

If I understand your message correctly, you are upset that 52 grain .223 bullets are inconsistent in length. Don't worry about it. Don't use a seater that pushes against the very tip of the bullet. Use a seater that bears against a portion of the bullet well down the ogive.

If varying OAL really bothers you, do as Layusn1 says and get a meplat uniformer.

I have yet to see a .223 that will not shoot terrific groups with any 52 or 53 grain bullet, 26.5 gr 748, a CCI primer, and LC or WW cases. I get about 1.25" at 200 yards with iron sights if there is no wind, or the wind is from behind.

CDD

 

[asknight]

If your "groups" are .05" apart.... what's the problem?


ETA: I should have read the thread to decipher the OP's questions. Seems I didn't catch the measuring the bullets by "height." Measure your bullets by weight if you can't measure the ogive to base, and seat them by the ogive.

 

[layusn1]

"I have yet to see a .223 that will not shoot terrific groups with any 52 or 53 grain bullet, 26.5 gr 748, a CCI primer, and LC or WW cases. I get about 1.25" at 200 yards with iron sights if there is no wind, or the wind is from behind."

It doesn't get much better than that. That seems to be a very standard starting load for people. The only difference in my load is I use CCI small rifle magnum primers (thats just because that is what the manual I used called for) and a slightly lower powder charge but it probably equals out. It is a great load.

 

[mc223]

Let's not forget that match bullets are only one component in, as the title says"Match Ammo". Loads need to be worked to achieve the best possible performance. Even "bad" bullets are capable of outstanding accuracy, with proper development.

 

[45ACPUSER]

Your time is wasted worrying about varying lengths in commercially avaliable bullets. Just go measure some Sierra Matchkings and the OAL will vary.
Great advice to use a seater that is seats of the ogive.
Meplat trimmer is a tweak that enhances long range accuracy, but for the average joe, not so much.

Control the variables you can. Case prep, charge wt, primers, and attnetion to detail.

There is always a better combination out there, but at the same time you could be wasting components and your time. I say find load that meets your expectations and then produce in qty.

 

[Walkalong]

OK, so we have established that the OAL of the bullets is going to vary and that it is not very important, which is true, unless exccessive.

Those Hornady match bullets are good bullets. My .222 Mag will shoot those or both the 50 & 55 Gr. Hornady soft points into one hole groups at 100 yds when I do my part in good conditions.

Give us some more details about your load and lets go from there.

 

[CZ223]

I will echo what the others say about not worrying so much about overall length. As long as you are not loading your bulletts to the point where they will start engaing the lands, a difference of.05" should not be a real issue. As far as bullet choices go I have never been impressed with Winchester or Speer bullets. I think you are on the right track with the Hornady match bullets but I would also suggest the Sierra 52/53 gr match kings. For me and my guns the Sierras just always seem to perform the best and I have tried Hornady, Nosler, Speer, Winchester, Remington and, of course, Sierra. What I really like about the Sierra bullets is that there Blitz Kings shoot almost as well as there Match Kings.

 

[LexDiamonds]

"I get about 1.25" at 200 yards with iron sights "

Not doubting you, but I would love to witness this....

 

[Lovesbeer99]

Thanks for all the responses. I'm only been loading for a short time, but I was under the impression that cartridge overall length was important.
I was loading the rounds then measuring the COAL and getting differences, so I checked my brass there was no difference so I measured the bullets and that was the problem.

So I don't have to worry about overall case lenth?

Also, I'm using H322 powder, but I keep hearing that 748 is a better choice. Any thoughts here?

Thanks, Lovesbeer99

 

[NuJudge]

I didn't develop the 26.5gr 748/52 or 53gr Match bullet/CCI primer load, a guy named John Sylvester did. Here's the thread where I learned of it, with two 100 yard targets (look at page two of the thread):

http://www.nationalmatch.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=694&hl=ball powder&st=15

On one of his targets, he has all X's, except for one wide 10. The other target also has one wide 10, with a couple seemingly just outside the X. At 100 yards, Sylvester shot a 1/2 inch group, with a flier opening it to an inch. These are 10 shot groups.

The AR I usually shoot this load in has a 1:9 barrel, floated, with match sights. I cannot get it to shoot anything but this load well. It hates 69's, 75's, Varget, 4895, etc.

The other AR uppers I have with faster twists shoot it about as well.

CDD

 

[jerkface11]

So what kind of groups do these inconsistent bullets shoot?

 

[strat81]

Lovesbeer99, if you haven't already, check out www.ar15.com and their reloading forum. THR is great, but those guys eat, sleep, and drink AR-15s. From the main page, click the "general" forum on the top right and then scroll down, almost to the bottom. There's a sticky post that features a reloading database of sorts.

They're not as peaches n' cream friendly over there compared to THR, but knowledgeable nonetheless.

 

[layusn1]

That is good advice about checking out AR15.com. One thing to keep in mind. You cannot use the search function to search their reloading forum unless you are a paid member. If you ask basic questions that they have answered several times they can be a little short with you, like the previous poster said, sometimes they aren't the friendliest people in the world. They do know their AR15s though. Anyway...take a few minutes to go ahead and read through the post archives to see if your questions have been asked. They don't give up load data too often but they do have a load data section posted as a sticky. There is a lot that can be learned there. Check them out and have fun.

 

[Lovesbeer99]

I haven't shot these yet, but plan to this weekend or next. I've been playing around with H322 powder and 55gr bullets with some success, but I'm not satisfied yet. I'll try these then I'll buy a pound of 748 and give it a shot. I keep hearing about this load so there must be truth to it.

 

[byf43]

"I get about 1.25" at 200 yards with iron sights "

LexDiamonds wrote:

Not doubting you, but I would love to witness this....

I've posted this several times before.
Here it comes again. . .

These two groups were fired at 100 yds from my Colt AR-HBAR. Open sights.
The load is: 23 gr. of H-335 and Federal brass, Federal 205M primers and Sierra 69 gr BTHP bullets.

Note the size of the groups. These groups were shot with OPEN sights.
These are 3 shot groups. The one group is right at 5/16" (measured left edge to left edge)!!!
These groups were fired on different days, under different conditions.
(The top group was fired from a sandbag rest. The bottom group was fired from prone position with a sling.)
This rifle is extremely accurate with the above listed loads!





With these groups in mind, shooting 1-1/4" groups at 200 yds is entirely possible.

 

[ocabj]

Just because you shot 5/16" group at 100 yards doesn't mean it's going to group 1.25" at 200 yards. You have to shoot at true distance to be able to claim it will shoot at that distance.

Don't want to toot my own horn, but here's a 10 round group shot at 200 meters (218~ yards) from prone, supported (sling) with my AR Service Rifle competition gun:

That's on a standard NRA SR (200 yard) target (3" X-ring). Will it shoot inside a 6" X-ring at 600 yards? Can't say for sure, but I've been able to post a 197-4x in gusty cross wind with some good safe siding.

I'm still in the process of testing some Berger .22cal prototypes Berger Bullets sent to me, 80gr and 82gr BTHP (non-VLD). At 100 yards, all of the test loads I came up with all shot at 1" or better (10 shot groups), but some of the same loads fell apart at 200, posting groups as bad as 5".

Anyway, what I'm trying to say is you have to test at distance. It's not difficult to come up with a load that shoots good at 100 yards, yet that same load could suffer significantly at 200 and 300 yards.

Plus, with metallic sights, I highly recommend shooting at least 10 round groups. 3 rounds leaves too much to chance. Shooting 10 rounds gives a more useful aggregate.