223 on the Lee Challenger

[jagugator]

I have been loading many different handgun bullets on a (then dads, now mine) Dillon 550 since around age 15, I am now 41. Loading for rifle is pretty new to me.

I have a Saiga 223 that I rarely shoot so I have been using a Lee classic loader kit for a year or so figuring 30 rounds pounded out an hour wasn't that bad. However I am going to be adding a S&W M&P 15 to the collection so I want to start shooting more 223.

I decided that instead of getting Dillon dies and a caliber conversion kit I would buy a single stage breech lock challenger press and an auto prime II. Pretty much just to see how the red gear works and I have to say so far I am not very happy with spending the money.

I believe most of my problems are from the Lee 223 die set I bought. It has a shell holder that only 1 in 5 pieces of brass fit into and the sp lever primer tool in the press shaft keeps getting hung up in the middle of the same and falls out onto the floor. It takes a tremendous amount of force to resize the once fired brass and even after ensuring every piece was pretty well lubed I had to knock out two pieces of brass from the neck sizing die. That was a first for me.

With the auto prime kit I have crushed more primers than ever. I am thinking that most of my problems with this are also from the shell holder, it just seems pretty loose when I finally find a piece of brass that fits. It was very frustrating only getting 19 bullets loaded in the 3 hours I was messing with the press.

Has anyone else had a problem with a Lee Shell holder? I think I am going to get another shell holder and see if maybe that is most of the problem.

Thanks for listening.

 

[ants]

I'm not even sure how deeply I want to jump in. A guy new to rifle reloading has problems, and wants to blame the equipment. I learned that lesson many, many years ago. When a half million other loaders are successful and happy, take a deep breath and go back to the fundamentals with patience. You can be successful and happy, too.

The rims of 223 get battered by semiauto rifles (especially AR and Saiga) so the problem is probably the rim, not the shellholder. I did get an RCBS shellholder for 30-06 once that had a burr in the slot, so it is possible that any new shellholder has a burr. Check that out, then check your rims.

If you are going to do any kind of volume, I wouldn't neck size for a semiauto rifle, especially a Saiga. Also, I would get familiar with the idea of bumping the shoulder back. The nature of these chambers will allow the case to stretch in the body, not just the neck.

Are you trimming after sizing?

If the die is clean, stuck cases are almost always a problem with case lube. Too much, too little, not well distributed, wrong lubricant, etc.

Can't help with the priming system. I use a different type.

 

[ranger335v]

Roger Mr. Ants. A press is a press, all they do is push cases into the dies and pull them back out.

Dies is dies, the insides are all of them are made to SAAMI specs and it's the insides that do the work, Lee's are as good as any.

A 'problem shell holder' that is tight on one case and loose on another is not a shell holder problem, it's a case rim problem.

Properly lubed cases, especially small ones like .223, will size like butter if they are properly lubed. All common reloading lubes are good. It's likely that if you put more on the lower, thicker part of your cases all will be well.

Crushing caps with the AutoPrime II is probably due to them turning sideways? That sometimes happens when the press lever is maniplated roughly, give the caps a quick look before inserting each case.

 

[atblis]

Get a set of calipers and start measuring some stuff. The diameters of the rims of your cases for starters. Measure your cases posts sizing. Compare them to factory ammo.

Reduces the guessing about what might be wrong.

A good bit of 5.56/223 has a crimped primer. Has the crimp been removed from the primer pockets? That'll make priming a little tricky

Where did this brass come from and what are the head stamps?

 

[wgaynor]

Are you lubing the inside of the case also? This might be why you need the extra effort in sizing. As a "newb" to reloading, it was a mistake I made.

The advice about the primer crimp is also spot on. It can add another step. I use the Lee hand primer for my .223 also (along with once fired LC Military Brass). The crimp is a PITA. It is worthwhile though if the source is cheap enough.

It is also important to ensure that the primer is right side up and to go slowly. With the handprime, you can "feel" the primer seat. By "feeling" the primer seat, you can usually detect problems before they become problems (primers turned sideways, not enough crimp removed, and so on...)

I have also noticed that some once fired military brass do seem to be a tighter fit than others in the shell holder. Don't worry about it, they do fit, reload, and fire without problems.

 

[jagugator]

Ok I am going to take a deep breath and keep at it. I have been loading for a pretty long time so I guess I need to go back to the basics.

 

[NCMauser]

jagugator,

I load .223 also and had purchased a Lee shellholder, that is all that was available at the time. I did not have a problem with shell sliding in, but did have a problem with using it with my RCBS hand primer. The shellholder would not slide down far enough over the small primmer plastic pieces. I need to champfer the Lee shellholder so it will fit. It works fine in my RCBS Rock Chucker.

 

[jagugator]

Thanks everyone I got it up and running. I just needed more lube inside and out and much more patience. The front of the shell holder measures at .375, looking at 223 specs it is .003 too small. I measured most of the rims that don't fit and didn't find any above .377 so I am going to get another shell holder and see if that helps. I did learn that the auto prime works better if there is pressure from a full tube of primers pushing down. Loaded up 150 rounds today so I am happy with spending the money now.

 

[rhubarb]

.380 shellholder is the same ( #4 )

 

[jagugator]

.380's rim spec is .374 so they should work in this just fine. I have a few lying around so I will see how well they fit, just out of curiosity.

 

[MetalHead]

My two cents, I loaded my first rounds with a Lee whack-a-mole set, this caused me two problems. By the third loading the rim rolled forward from the whacks and my 788 extractor would not catch onto the rim, when I got a used Lyman c-press some rims were snug, others wouldn't seat properly in a RCBS shell holder as well. So you might want to try out some other brass.

 

[ants]

jag, before buying a new shellholder: Check to see if it's just a machining burr that 'closes' the slot to 0.375". That's exactly what happened to me on an RCBS shellholder once. I scraped off the burr and it's perfect (you gotta scrape hard, it's pretty tough steel). At least it's worth a try.

Yes, the same shellholder fits 223Rem, 380auto, 222, 222Mag, 221Fireball, 32 Colt, 32 S&W, and 7mmTCU.

 

[jagugator]

Pretty much all of the brass I tried was once fired from the range where I shoot.
I stopped on the way home and sure enough the new shell holder works. I will see if I can use a small file to fix the other one but I am not going to put to much sweat into it. I am happy and I want to thank everyone for thier help. I have loaded about 200 rounds so far.

 

[ants]

Good work, Jag.

Not to change the subject... but before you load too many, are you familiar with 'bumping the shoulder' ? Try to chamber those rounds in your M&P to make sure the bolt closes and opens easily. If it gets stuck before closing, you may need to screw the sizing die farther down. This is something you didn't have to worry about when using your Classic Loader.

 

[jagugator]

Ants,

I haven't gotten the M&P yet. So far all of the ones I have tried (about 50)chambered fine in the Saiga.

I have been reading about bumping the shoulder and unless I am mistaken I believe it is using a full length die but only going as far as realigning the shoulder.

Thanks,
Ed

 

[ants]

To bump shoulder back

I'd say we've covered that ground pretty well. Each member has his own favorite way of explaining it. Some press linkages (like RCBS) go overcenter, where others (like Lee Challenger) do not. Do a quick search for other threads on the subject.

When you get the M&P, better check your ammo to make sure it chambers fully and the bolt closes all the way (and then opens easily when you withdraw the charging handle). Each rifle is a little different. You'll have to try it when you get the rifle.

 

[jagugator]

Thanks for the help!