.223 rem on whitetail deer?

[Art Eatman]

If you shoot and Bambi falls down dead, what difference does it make what cartridge you used? How is any clean kill not ethical?

Considering how many folks have been quite successful in killing deer with a .223 using modern bullets, it's rather silly to talk as though such effort is as difficult as making love in a hammock while standing up.

 

[Dr T]

For me, the question boils down to margin for error. This last year, I killed a whitetail in West Texas with a 308 that would have died just as quickly if the same shot placement had been made with a 22 short (solid, not hollow point). HOWEVER, the 22 short would not have had enough margin for error for a clean kill if the shot had been 1/2 inch off in any direction. The 308 did have that much margin.

While I personally would not use a 223 for deer (the only deer I have ever lost was shot with a 223) unless a super-premium bullet designed for the task at hand was used, I know many who have.

So, if the OP were hunting in a wooded area, from a stand with a good rest, and had a clear shot (no bushes or leaves in the way) at a well defined vital area that he was pretty sure he could hit within 3 inches of point of aim at a modest distance (certainly less than 100 yards), it would work. I would be temped to do it (but I would limit my shot to 50 yards with a something like a Barnes Xbullet or Nosler partition. As long as it is legal to use the gun on those big northern whitetails...

 

[mcdonl]

If you shoot and Bambi falls down dead, what difference does it make what cartridge you used? How is any clean kill not ethical?

Considering how many folks have been quite successful in killing deer with a .223 using modern bullets, it's rather silly to talk as though such effort is as difficult as making love in a hammock while standing up.

That was funny Art...

My comment was related to the fact he has guns that are of a more traditional caliber but he does not want to scratch them. I think that if all things are equal regarding ability to put the round where you want it that protecting a gun from being scratched should not factor into caliber selection.

He asked the question, and he got answers. I assume the OP asked the question because he had reservations and feels that his other rifle would be better suited, but does not want to scratch it.

 

[Geno]

Art said:

Considering how many folks have been quite successful in killing deer with a .223 using modern bullets, it's rather silly to talk as though such effort is as difficult as making love in a hammock while standing up.

Wow, just when I think I have no more items to add to my bucket list...

Geno

 

[Ar180shooter]

Actually you can forfeit anything that you used while hunting. This includes your TRUCK. Large monetary fine, hunting ban and criminal record. Here in AB, anyway.

That's for poaching.

In season with a valid tag and in an area where you may use rifles to hunt would likely mean an inhumane hunting charge, or something similar which is less serious than poaching. There is a fair amount of discretion on the part of the CO too.

 

[K1500]

[Lets get a few myths cleared up.

Quote:
.22 calibers are legal in some states,
A 223 is legal in 40 of the 50 states, of the 10 where it is not legal, 5-6 are shotgun only. So only 4-5 states where rifles are allowed do not allow the 223. There have been 2 states within the last year that have changed their laws.

Most of the failures that you read about are from folks using varmit bullets in their 223 on deer. Use varmit bullets in a 7mm magnum and you will see failures on deer. Use a bullet designed for big game hunting in either a 7 mag or a 223 and either will drop any deer in the USA.

A 223 is a shorter range round, but any deer within 150-200 yards is in trouble if you can shoot, and use good bullets. In a 223 I'd be using a 60 gr Nosler Partitions, or a 55-62 gr Barnes TTSX. You won't find any people who have actually used a 223 with good bullets tell you you need a bigger gun. Used with good bullets, and at reasonable ranges it is a fine deer round.

Quote:
go with a 30-30 and for closer range a .44 mag is deadly to 100 yards plus a few more.
I disagree. NOTHING will reliably shoot THROUGH brush. A 30-30 or 44 magnum will deflect just as badly as any other round if they hit brush. The ideal brush gun is accurate and flat shooting enough to shoot though tiny openings in the brush. A a scoped, lightweight, accurate bolt rifle in a flat shooting cartridge is the ideal brush gun. The traditional lever action calibers will be several inches above or below your line of sight even at 100 yards. When shooting at a deer 75 yards away the bullet could easily hit braches as it flies in an arched trajectory. A 223, your 308, or any modern flat shooting round can be zeroed at 100 yards and never be more than 1/2" high or low between 50yards and 150 yards. Being able to shoot through a baseball sized opening at 50-75 yards is how you shoot thorough brush./QUOTE]

^^^ This guy is dead on.

 

[Rugerspyderon]

Lucky. I have to use slugs on Ohio.

 

[TCB in TN]

Here in Tn we have a wide range of deer sizes and a wide range of hunting environments. The biggest deer I have ever personally killed was on an either sex hunt, she dressed 186 lbs. Just last year a friend of mine's son killed a 10 pt that dressed in the 240 range. Some places I have hunted one would be lucky to see.a deer over 150 lbs on the hoof.

As for what to shoot, well the Indians used bows.that were far less.accurate and far.less powerful that the 5,56. Our fore father's muskets were as a rule far less accurate and even in modern history rounds that were.far less powerful than the.5,56 were commonly used. History taught those who.lived through it to adjust their tactics range and shot selection to the tool.at hand. Personally I would much rather see hunters with 5,56 rifles than any handgun. The same goes for a bow. On average a.modern rifle in any caliber, is far more likely to put the projectile in the wheelhouse.

Btw.apologies for the typing, I hate touch screens.

 

[Clippers]

I had always said that a .223 was too small of a caliber to be shooting deer with, that is until my 8 year old daughter wanted to deer hunt with me. I bought her a .223 bolt action and she's been using it to shoot 2-3 deer a year with it for 5 years. She only lost one of those deer, drawing blood, but never finding it. Every other deer that she shot died within 20-30 yards. She has proven to me that it doesn't matter whether you're shooting a .223 or a .300 caliber round, shot placement is key.

 

[sixgunner455]

Good for you, and her, Clippers.

 

[Davek1977]

Apparently, experiences be darned, the .223 WILL NOT kill deer reliably. Nevermind the fact numerous people here have used the .223 with success many times over. Sure, you will find a few peope who admit to losing a deer when using the .223....the same could be said of the 243....the 30-30...the 6.5x55.....the 270, the o6's.....you can wound a deer with a 7mm mag just like you can a .223. Power doesn't make up for shot placement. A deer shot in the leg or gut is going to hobble off regardless of what you shoot it with. A deer with a bullet through its heart or lungs is going to die, whether that bullet is a 62 gr softpoint or a 50 caliber musket ball or a .30 caliber spitzer.

 

[Kachok]

Deer hunting with a 223 is like towing a 30 foot camper with an S10, yeah I have seen it done, but why would you do it if you had a bigger truck designed for that task? That is the part I don't understand there is nothing a 223 could do to a deer that a 7mm-08 could not do twice as well, and since meat damage is mostly a function of velocity probably with less gunshot meat too. The 223s have huge disadvantages I really fail to see what the appeal is unless you are just trying to see how small you can do and still kill something, if so you can count me out of that contest, I want no part of it.
BTW I have never seen a deer lost to a vital shot with a 6.5x55, 30-06, or 7mm Rem Mag, to imply that the 223 could do the same job just as well is beyond silly, anyone who would believe such needs to study the very basics of terminal ballistics.

 

[Davek1977]

Are you saying that a bullet of .223 through the heart or lungs of a deer won't kill it? How dead is dead? I don't need to understand terminal ballistics (though I do) to realize that turning the heart to pulp, which the .223 can do, kills animals dead. To argue otherwise is silly. How many deer to you see running around w/o a heart? If you put the bullet where the bullet should go...regardless of what caliber you choose to use....you'll have a dead deer. Gutshoot it or take out a lower leg, and it doesn't matter what you are shooting, you have a wounded critter on your hands. Just like I wouldn't take a 100 yard shot with a bow or a 200 yard shot with a smoothbore 12 gauge, I certainly wouldn't take a 300 yard shot on a deer with a .223. Put that same deer (Nothern, Southern, Mulie, Whitetail, makes no difference) at 100 yards, and I'll kill it dead every time, if I wait for the right shot...which we all should do 100 % of the time anyway. If you are the sort of hunter who has no patience, who has to take a shot "right now" because "it may be the only chance I get".....the .223 probably isn't your ideal choice. I can openly admit that. I don't have such issues where I hunt, often seeing over 100 deer a day. If my goal is to simply kill deer, achieving it isn't much of a challenge, and that means, I can pick and choose my shots. If you can't, or aren't willing to, my personal opinion is that you shouldnt be hunting at all, but if you must, the .223 isn't the gun for you most likely

 

[Kachok]

Are you saying that a bullet of .223 through the heart or lungs of a deer won't kill it? How dead is dead? I don't need to understand terminal ballistics (though I do) to realize that turning the heart to pulp, which the .223 can do, kills animals dead. To argue otherwise is silly. How many deer to you see running around w/o a heart? If you put the bullet where the bullet should go...regardless of what caliber you choose to use....you'll have a dead deer. Gutshoot it or take out a lower leg, and it doesn't matter what you are shooting, you have a wounded critter on your hands. Just like I wouldn't take a 100 yard shot with a bow or a 200 yard shot with a smoothbore 12 gauge, I certainly wouldn't take a 300 yard shot on a deer with a .223. Put that same deer (Nothern, Southern, Mulie, Whitetail, makes no difference) at 100 yards, and I'll kill it dead every time, if I wait for the right shot...which we all should do 100 % of the time anyway. If you are the sort of hunter who has no patience, who has to take a shot "right now" because "it may be the only chance I get".....the .223 probably isn't your ideal choice. I can openly admit that. I don't have such issues where I hunt, often seeing over 100 deer a day. If my goal is to simply kill deer, achieving it isn't much of a challenge, and that means, I can pick and choose my shots. If you can't, or aren't willing to, my personal opinion is that you shouldnt be hunting at all, but if you must, the .223 isn't the gun for you most likely

No I am saying that the vast majority of hunters are not going to be able to put it in the heart every single time myself included, and to be honest I have never met the hunter who has, and when you do miss the heart which will almost certainly happen you rely on the soft tissue damage that your bullet can make to damage the organ remotely THAT is where having an adequate cartridge comes into play, I just told this story on another thread but I will say it again here, last year my brother pulled a shot striking a doe in the guts, had he been using a 223 or even a 243 that poor thing would have likely run off and taken hours to die, but seeing as he was using my really nasty 165gr SGK handloads the lungs that were several inches from the path of the bullet were pulverized and the heart was damaged (prasumably by a bullet fragment) she did not quite get 20 feet from where she was shot before falling over dead, another case that happened recently was a friend of mine pulled a shot and struck a 140lbs doe at the very front edge of her shoulder with my 6.5x55, again did not strike any of the vitals directly (not even close really) but the remote damage was so severe that she fell over inside 10 feet, I don't condone marginal shot placement either but even the best of us have hit a few inches off our mark at times, and being completely reliant on surgical shot placement is a fools game in my book, if you have placed every shot you ever took within an inch of your mark then sir I bow to your marksmanship but I can assure you the vast majority of hunters cannot. Even if you are that good to put you shot through their left ventricle every time I still fail to see the appeal of the 223, because just stopping the heart does not kill them instantly you still need some impact to get a bang flop kill.
I have seen numerous 223 ballistic gel tests, and the one thing they all had in common was a VERY narrow wound tract several inches in, on a couple occasions the wound tract was not even visible it was so small, when you see that you have to know that would not be imparting much remote damage to surrounding organs, tests from real hunting calibers have shown much more substantial wounding after the initial shock cavity.
BTW I have seen several deer shot with 223s in the past, and in every case (except for a spine shot) I have seen the deer have run off and required tracking, I never have been impressed by results like that, have also seen someone try a 223 on a feral hog, it took several shots to put him down and a couple more to the head to finish him off, again I am just not impressed at all, nor are most people in the Army we were all hoping they would bring the 7.62s back.

 

[Davek1977]

I'm not discounting your experience, but others have had vastly different results than you describe. IF I had seen the .223 be a notorious wounder, I wouldn't use it. That, however, hasn't been my experience. I've seen deer marginally hit with other calibers escape, but I've never seen a .223 to the vitals fail to do its job. Again, I've never felt the need to rush a shot when using the .223, and have and will again pass up shots I'd easily make with my 7mm. Its not the end all, be all deer round, and I'm not promoting it as such. What I am saying is that an experienced hunter who can afford to wiat for ideal shot placement within reasonable yardages for the caliber and one's personal experience/skill level, should have absolutely no issue killing deer, whether it be with a .223 or a .50 bmg.

 

[Kachok]

OK I think we are on the same page then, or at leased close to it, if you are passing up on deer because of shot distance and angle you are abiding by the limitations that I was talking about earlier, in your case you very well may be able to get away with a 223, but most people I know are not that patient to wait for ideal shots, I am more of a meat hunter, not that I don't enjoy deer hunting because I really do, but when the freezer needs filling I hate having to pass up on clean shots that may be a less then ideal angle or 300+ yards out. That is why I love my Swede so much, a light kicking flat shooting long ranged rifle that will shoot through a deer any way but lengthwise with impressive trauma throughout, getting to go hunting is enough of a challenge for me I don't need to make it any more challenging when I am out there
For hunters in general though I have to agree with the guys at Brass fetcher (the people who do all the ballistics gel testing)
"The 223 Remington cartridge is a powerful varmint cartridge and is useful for self-defense against hostile human beings. We do not recommend using it for harvesting medium game animals such as deer and wild hogs, unless you have no other alternative."

 

[BoilerUP]

Heard a story of a guy who hit a large whitetail with a 7RM, loaded with 140gr Matchkings at some hypersonic velocity because it would cause massive hydrostatic shock.

Well, dude hit the deer in the shoulder instead of the boiler room, and it ran a half mile on three good legs before expiring. The front left leg could be rotated 360 degrees, but the wound was very shallow.

I've also seen the biggest buck ever taken on my family's land as a DRT lower neck shot with a 223 by a very small framed 13 year old boy with a Handi rifle.

The difference? Shot placement and bullet selection.

I had a 54cal muzzleloader hang-fire a few years ago, and ended up gut shooting a doe with a 300gr slug. Tracked that deer for about a quarter mile before losing the blood trail.

Big, heavy projectile didn't help me there.

Again...shot placement and bullet selection.

 

[HexHead]

Having read four pages of this, it's clear to me that while .223 can get the job done, it's marginal. There are much better options that don't necessarily rely on optimal conditions to get the kill.

 

[MAGGUNS44]

Have had good luck with remington factory 55gr soft points out to two hundred yards with neck shots.

 

[itsa pain]

it seems like most of the deer shot here are does. to each his own but getting a doe around here is as easy as a squirrel and I always hear guys talking hunting as a skill and fair chase etc. so I guess a.223 is good for that

 

[fallout mike]

.223 will NOT kill deer ethically. Just disregard all the evidence stated here in this thread. You must have a magnum in .30 caliber in accomplish the near impossible feat of killing a deer.

 

[Art Eatman]

I regard my .223 as marginal. So what? I'm equally picky about the use of my .243, since I am lazy and only load the 85-grain Sierra HPBT for it, for coyotes and deer. I limit myself for where on Bambi I want to hit, and limit the range at which I make the shoot/pass decision.

I have a different mindset when using my 7mm08 or my .30-'06. With them, I'd take an angling shot and be willing to reach out further.

Howsomever, since my Dear Ol' Daddy told me to hit Bambi in the white spot as a way of life for a deer hunter, I haven't had to worry a lot about trailing.

 

[scaatylobo]

@ fallout mike

WAY too small a caliber--- either a Ma Deuce 50 or dont even try it.

You could try a lighter 458 Win Mag ,but only with the best shot placement that Wyatt Earp could muster.

I got a good giggle from all the know it alls that 'really' have the skinny and IGNORE the actual kills made by hunters, that enjoy the challenge of shot placement.

 

[silicosys4]

WAY too small a caliber--- either a Ma Deuce 50 or dont even try it.

You could try a lighter 458 Win Mag ,but only with the best shot placement that Wyatt Earp could muster.

I got a good giggle from all the know it alls that 'really' have the skinny and IGNORE the actual kills made by hunters, that enjoy the challenge of shot placement.

Yup, I refuse to use a .223 on a deer that I might or might not have to take an angling away shot on at 300 yards, or shoot through a pine bough....that's likely the only buck I will see all season given where I am....because I am a know it all and am ignoring all the kills made with it.
Its a varmint cartridge that can be loaded to adequately take deer. No thanks, I'll take a big game cartridge that is loaded to more than adequately take big game, and to have as few caveats as possible. I don't look at hunting as a sport though, its a meat thing for me, and animals that run after being shot taste bad.

The "challenge" of shot placement....sorry, I've seen what happens when someone is not up to the challenge of making that shot, and I'm not going to stroke my ego at the expense of needless suffering and gamey, adrenalin filled meat if I don't make the challenge. I'll save the challenge for throwing darts, or shooting at targets or clays.

 

[Kachok]

WAY too small a caliber--- either a Ma Deuce 50 or dont even try it.

You could try a lighter 458 Win Mag ,but only with the best shot placement that Wyatt Earp could muster.

I got a good giggle from all the know it alls that 'really' have the skinny and IGNORE the actual kills made by hunters, that enjoy the challenge of shot placement.

I don't ignore the actual kills made by hunters, nor do I ignore the people I know who have wounded/lost deer with a 223, and yes I know several of them. We can sit back and criticize saying they should have used this bullet or that bullet, or they should have shot him in the neck/spine/brain whatever but at the end of the day for anyone who has to ask I tell them it is a bad idea, because the people who know their marksmanship, rifle, bullets, and shot placement don't have to ask, they know. Even for the best marksman/handloader/hunter I see absolutely no advantage to a 223 unless you are so recoil shy a 243 hurts you. The 223 does nothing a 308, 270, 243.....etc does not but my 30-06 can do things your whole 30 round magazine of 223 would never dream of.
I know an old man who has taken more deer then I could ever hope to with a 22 rimfire, does that make the 22LR a great deer rifle.... HELL NO! But put it in the hands of someone who can hit the CNS on a regular basis and it is as lethal as anything. He quit poaching a long time ago and has since switched to a 270 Win.