.223 self-defense/combat

[ny32182]

If I were handloading I'd be looking for the TAP bullets.

I'd be more likely to stick with factory mil-spec M193 however. Looking at the wound profiles shows that it causes more internal damage than just about any controlled expansion softpoint/hunting bullet, etc. Who uses the .223? Well, just about every major (or minor) western type military force in the world, as well as nearly every police force in the US. Arguing that a .223 can't kill something is like arguing that the sky isn't blue, or space isn't big.

 

[kestak]

Greetings,

The bullet pointed at midway is a match bullet. I do not think this is the bullet used by Hornady in their self-defense rounds.

Thank you

 

[Mags]

Try Barnes 62 grain TSX bullets they open up pretty wicked. I also have tried the CT ballistic silver tips but they don't open up too much. Hornady uses the V-max or A-max in their TAP ammo I have some 55 grain V-maxes loaded up for SD along with the Barnes using Ramshot TAC. I even used purty nickel cases.

 

[rcmodel]

are essentially varmint bullets; I would not count on them to penetrate enough to create disabling wounds.

Never shot anything living with a Hornady V-Max or Nosler Ballistic-Tip varmint bullet have you?

rc

 

[JShirley]

Read up on it, the military chose 223 to NOT kill people but to wound them. Wounding them takes more resources off the battleground to haul them away.

Complete fiction, invented well after the fact.

kestak, you need to think about your priorities. If you want a dual-purpose load, a 60-grain or heavier soft-point will work fine for decent shots on deer, or self-defense, since you're not worried about overpenetration.

You have to think about what you find most important in a defensive round. Do you want at least some ability to punch through obstacles? Do you believe rapid energy transfer and fragmentation in an adversary is best, or would you prefer more limited expansion and complete penetration? Understanding your priorities will help you know what to load with.

Personally, I'm not particularly concerned with attempting to punch through obstacles, and I would like to tear the hell out of a fleshy aggressive bipedal target. With that in mind, I would probably want to go with a heavier varmint bullet, like a 55-grain V-Max.

John

 

[kestak]

Greetings,

JShirley: My priority is 2 legged predator (i.e.: Bad guy - You live in GA, you know how the crime rate skyrocketed in the last 6 months...).

If I would need penetration through obstacle, I would use my PSL.

Right now, I reload Hornady SP 55 grains. How does it compare to the 55 V-max? Anyone did some tests?

Thank you

 

[rcmodel]

I use 55 grain V-Max or Nosler Ballistic-Tips, depending on which is cheaper at the time. Same bullet preformance as far as I can tell.

I doubt there would be a huge differance between them and 55 grain SP's either.

But I use them for the accuracy, and the non-deforming plastic tips.

In the past, I used 55 grain SP or HP, but the SP tended to get the lead nose flattened or deformed in the magazine and during feeding, and the match HP's were not as reliable for blowing up inside coyotes..

In my experiance the plastic-tip bullets are more accurate then SP's, or about any bullets.

rc

 

[JShirley]

Kestak,

The SPs *should* have deeper penetration, but we'd have to test that. Which isn't too hard.

John

 

[kestak]

Greetings,

RCModel, I understand that the v-max or nosler ballistic tip in 55 grains are good for coyotes and varmints. I read a few comments that some people used them for deer hunting.

Would those be good against a human critter too? People comments are those are "explosive"... I am not sure too much what to think about that comment.

Thank you

 

[Seedtick]

I like the plastic tip bullets as well.

As far as bullet weight and rate of twist - I don't think it will matter much if you are shooting from the living room to the kitchen.

ST

 

[coloradokevin]

Anything in a .308 or larger caliber. Sorry, .223 is not an effective killer and I was always taught that I should only point a gun at something that I plan to kill.

Have you ever actually seen someone shot with a .223 round? There are enough documented uses of the .223 that you certainly don't need to take my word for it, but it certainly works.

Please try to find one professional (outside the military) that chooses to carry anything with a .224 slug.

Found. I'm right here... I had a choice between an AR-15 or a Remington 870. I chose the AR-15. By the way, there is absolutely nothing wrong with the shotgun choice, but the AR-15 gave me more versatility than the shotgun, and I've yet to see a well-placed shot with a 5.56 round fail to drop a person. And, well placed shots are the only ones that actually count (in other words, don't be surprised if someone is only wounded when they're shot in the arm, regardless of caliber).

 

[kelbro]

Well guys, I do try to keep an open mind. I have three ARs and just never even thought about grabbing one in the case of a home intrusion. Never thought about carrying one while out walking the dogs at night or carrying in case I have car trouble in a bad part of town.

I think of ARs as 50-250yd weapons. They can lay a lot of lead out there quick though. I always thought of a self-defense situation as occurring within 20 feet. Maybe you guys are thinking of different self-defense scenarios than I imagine. Like I said, I try to keep an open mind.

 

[Tim the student]

I've yet to see a well-placed shot with a 5.56 round fail to drop a person.

I have, but that was with FMJ's. Do you know what type of bullet was used when you always saw them drop?

Personally, I think the caliber would be great - but only with the right bullet.

 

[rogn]

Most varmit rated softpoints will explode at close range and fail to penetrate, giving only a large shallow "flesh" wound. Proven on game. PERIOD. Match type bullets are not consistent in behavior, may blow or may penetrate. Sierra 77 w/cannulure is said to fracture due to cannulure and turn to multiple projectiles. Controlled expansion Nosler partition and Barnes tsx are predictable and will kill animals well. Should be best choice for lethality. Is there not some relationship between PMC and Wolf? And in reality does not a wounded casualty require attention, or should I not consider fighting alongside some of you folks.

 

[JShirley]

I think of ARs as 50-250yd weapons

Well, great, but the majority of my training and practice with the M4 in the Army was 1-50 meters. At almost contact distance, you swing your barrel up until the front sight covers the target, and press twice. Swing your barrel up further and execute a failure to stop if target is still standing (I'd train to do this automatically). We would begin practice with weapon at low ready, and, at whistle blow, would engage. After our initial "squared-up" fire, we would practice beginning from each side: at whistle, pivot and engage. Then, beginning with back to target. At whistle, pivot fully, maintaining safe muzzle discipline, swing carbine up, engage. Then, move back, and continue, though we only did the pivots very close-in.

Most varmit rated softpoints will explode at close range and fail to penetrate

Could you give us some examples of these "varmit rated softpoints"? I thought most .223 varmint rounds were HPs. (Which, as I mentioned, I'd have no problem using for defense against people. Incidentally, the further away you are, the more penetration you will typically get with fragmenting rounds.)

John

 

[R.W.Dale]

Well, great, but the majority of my training and practice with the M4 in the Army was 1-50 meters. At almost contact distance, you swing your barrel up until the front sight covers the target, and press twice. Swing your barrel up further and execute a failure to stop if target is still standing (I'd train to do this automatically). We would begin practice with weapon at low ready, and, at whistle blow, would engage. After our initial "squared-up" fire, we would practice beginning from each side: at whistle, pivot and engage. Then, beginning with back to target. At whistle, pivot fully, maintaining safe muzzle discipline, swing carbine up, engage. Then, move back, and continue, though we only did the pivots very close-in.



Could you give us some examples of these "varmit rated softpoints"? I thought most .223 varmint rounds were HPs. (Which, as I mentioned, I'd have no problem using for defense against people. Incidentally, the further away you are, the more penetration you will typically get with fragmenting rounds.)

John

The hornady super explosive spire point comes to mind as well as various "varminters" in the Sierra line of bullets.

Noawdays what the end of the bullet looks like is no indication of it's intended use parameters.

EXAMPLE You can get HP bullets that fragment, penatrate with delayed expansion or act like FMJ

 

[kelbro]

Well, great, but the majority of my training and practice with the M4 in the Army was 1-50 meters. At almost contact distance, you swing your barrel up until the front sight covers the target, and press twice. Swing your barrel up further and execute a failure to stop if target is still standing (I'd train to do this automatically). We would begin practice with weapon at low ready, and, at whistle blow, would engage. After our initial "squared-up" fire, we would practice beginning from each side: at whistle, pivot and engage. Then, beginning with back to target. At whistle, pivot fully, maintaining safe muzzle discipline, swing carbine up, engage. Then, move back, and continue, though we only did the pivots very close-in.

Interesting. My experience with ARs has been mostly for coyote hunting. Never trained with one for defense situations. Like I said, I try to keep an open mind and appreciate new ideas/experiences. Your post gives me something to think about.

 

[JShirley]

Well, experience counts for a lot, too. After months of this training, and thousands of rounds, I'm comfortable with using an AR at close range. I think, in general, that carbines are preferable to other systems for close combat or self/home defense, BUT if someone shoots a shotgun a lot, and is fast and accurate...use what you're good with.

I will say, immediately after leaving active duty originally, I hit running deer through brush with slugs. The first one, I shot just behind the head. (I only realized after the fact that I hit her there because that's all I could see.)

So, there is some transference of skills between weapons.

 

[Mags]

The Aimpoint sighted in on my AR-15 is sighted for 25 yards and my LAR-8 is set for 100 yards you guys who can't fathom a rifle for SD figure it out.

 

[Redneck with a 40]

If I ever have to defend the homestead, I live out in the sticks, I'm grabbing the mini-14 with a 20 round mag full of 55 gr soft-points. I'm not talking about "inside the home", but a natural disaster type scenario, defending against marauder's, the mini would get the job.

 

[1903A3]

I am a big fan of the 50gr. V-max at 3300fps. even out of my 11.5 1x9 twist it is accurate, explosive on target, and no over-penetration. I use H335 powder and cci primers.

 

[freakshow10mm]

My weapons are loaded with handloads using the 64gr Winchester Power Point bullet. I have yet to find a better bullet.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I hate to interrupt so much entertaining speculation with actual data that is relevant to the question; but this thread has a whole bunch of terminal ballistics information for .223:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=146306

i use PPU 55gr FMJBT in 5.56x45mm NATO for self defense cuz those heavy bullets dont yaw and fragment as well as the 55gr FMJ.

Really? That strikes me as odd since typically a heavy bullet can do more fragmentation damage since it has more actual mass to create fragments with, even if you put aside the issue of penetration. Another point you might want to consider is not all 55gr FMJ is created equally... bullet construction plays an important role. Wolf 55gr FMJ will not fragment at all because it uses a thicker, stronger jacket material. I have no idea about what PMC uses; but I wouldn't automatically assume that it will fragment like M193 without testing that first. For that matter, M193 fails to yaw and fragment approximatyely 25% of the time (even when travelling above 2,700fps).

yeah the heavy .223 have better penetration but who needs that when you have extreme fragmentation?

Well, let's see... let's say the bad guy has his arms up in front of him because he is pointing a handgun or other firearm at you. What happens if your "explosive fragmentation" occurs in the first 3-4" and you strike that limb? It will mess up the arm; but it certainly won't stop the fight or physiologically prevent him from shooting back at you because the bullet did not penetrate deeply enough before it explosively fragmented. On the other hand, a bullet that meets the FBI 12" minimum in gel is going to mess up the arm and still be able to penetrate deeply enough to have a chance of causing a physiological stop (the attacker stops what he is doing because it is impossible for his body to continue).