.224 Valkyrie

[dranrab]

We need some development with 23 and 29 caliber. That's uncharted territory.

 

[1stmarine]

The leaks of exactly what was coming out first came from other companies that Federal consulted with during development. That video just came out afterwards a few days ago.

Why is a 100gr bonded soft point unacceptable for medium game from a terminal standpoint? I totally disagree with that statement. 110gr 6.8mm bonded bullets have worked fine for me on deer, it's a big stretch to pretend that a 100gr bonded isn't going to kill a deer just because it's .224" diameter. Fusion bullets area known to expand well, and with a SD of .284, penetration should be more than enough.

You might want to watch the video, they aren't talking about using 60gr ballistic tips for medium game.

Again, I don't know where you're getting the 1:6 twist stuff from, but it doesn't seem to be based in reality, read what I wrote above please.

I guess we'll see what barrel length the advertised numbers are from as more info comes out, I'm betting 20".

Those 105gr and 107gr 6mm bullets fine have BCs as high as the 90gr .224. To match the 90gr .224 you have to go to a 110gr SMK, 115gr Berger, etc. What does the price comparison look like then? Apples to Apples.

I don't have any vested interest in this cartridge, and may not ever buy something so-chambered, but the knee-jerk reaction to it is puzzling. At least they aren't introducing a new Uber Nosler/Weatherby whompin' stompin' magnum or something like another 300 BLK-esque blaster with a mortar-like trajectory. I'm interested in seeing all the actual information on the .224 Valkyrie before dismissing it out of hand.

I can see you are not familiar with the smaller bores so let me give you some data...

The 6.8 with a 18" will put the 95gr TTSX using AA2230/Xterminator in the mid 2800's that is a proven bullet that hits like a lightning rod at the average distances folks hunt (and should hunt) with these small calibers.
This is all well proven and documented as a very effective hunting cartridge. Talk to hunters in Texas, AK, AZ, etc.. Midwest and go to hunting forums where one will find plenty of information about this simple yet proven platform.
I have never seen a 22 caliber 100gr bullet anywhere. The bullet needs speed at impact, section and proper construction to give consistency whether it is soft tissue or striking bone w/o deflection or too much fragmentation.
Any stout bonded or solid copper in 100gr will be impossible w/o further increasing the twist to what 5 twist? simple physics here.

The 1:6 twist is what folks have been using for the advertised bullets. Again this is not a new idea. These wildcats have been used for a long time and not just in bolt action but also in the AR platform.

It is not just the wildcatters telling us that but the manufacturers themselves. If you don't use a 6 twist you will not get the advertised BC and might have problems stabilizing those bullets.

From Sierras website ... Read in red....




From Bergers Website....




The 6mm 105/107gr bullets have comparable and even better BCs and in many instances cost less....
So more speed, better bcs, a tad more grain, more civilized twist, huge assortment, proven tract record.... one doesn't have to be Einstein to figure this out...

Those 6mm are cheaper at midway and some have similar and even slightly higher BCs...

From Hornady, Nosler, Berger, jlk and others....










JLK that is a classic with the small case / small bore 1000 yard high power shooters has discontinued the 90gr bullet because folks abandoned the 90gr in 22 bore
for the reasons I explained above and instead they are huge in the 6mm bore for this style of shooting. The 6mm dominates many styles form target score BR to some hp competitions.




Instead now you folks concentrate on the 6mm and use those in anything from 6mm Grendel to dashers to the longer cases like 6mmx47 and obviously the XC...

Because of their clients are mainly competitive and some professional shooters they are very clear about the required twists and how the bullet is going
to perform... The JLKs are bought bulk and at 35 cents each are in the same price as the 22's posted above.
As you can see some similar or even cheaper than the heaviest 22 caliber ones.




This is not a new caliber so you can research it regardless of what federal says. They are not going to change anything from the wildcat.
I think it is very attractive and cool but also the main selling point is not going to cut it for the folks who understand ballistics.

In the hunting forums folks have been using the 6mm and 22 versions of the 6.8 under several names. you will find in accurate shooter some info
and in the 6.8 forums some of the 22's.

Any wildcatters forum will give you also have huge information from a simple 22 PPC to 22 BR or even the 22 grendel, dashers and others...


This is not about trashing any initiative but about giving more realistic information and expectations about what we know about this type of round.

Nothing new here, seriously.

 

[someguy2800]

I believe Federal is introducing a new 100 grain bullet just for this round. I could see a soft point hunting bullet with a steeper boat tail and ogive angle, and no hollow section in the tip ending up being shorter than a 90 grain berger and thus being able to stabilize in a 1:6.5 twist barrel. That doesn't make it any less stupid, but I can see how it could be made to work. I'd much rather have the 6.8 spc or a grendel or a 30 american, or a 277 wolverine for a hunting round. I'm not a 1000 yard shooter but I think using a 22 caliber AR15 for that task is a bit like trying to make a racecar out of a duece and a half.

 

[1stmarine]

I believe Federal is introducing a new 100 grain bullet just for this round. I could see a soft point hunting bullet with a steeper boat tail and ogive angle, and no hollow section in the tip ending up being shorter than a 90 grain berger and thus being able to stabilize in a 1:6.5 twist barrel. That doesn't make it any less stupid, but I can see how it could be made to work. I'd much rather have the 6.8 spc or a grendel or a 30 american, or a 277 wolverine for a hunting round. I'm not a 1000 yard shooter but I think using a 22 caliber AR15 for that task is a bit like trying to make a racecar out of a duece and a half.

I understand that but I have serious doubts they can get a stout bullet in that grain and keep standard twists. Lets not even talk about a barnes that might max out at 75gr. I mean we have the 70gr TSX that is already very long
and has 3 cuts and needs a 1:8 twist to work.
If we apply a twist formula with popular construction including partition and bonded we end up with a 6 twist or more for a 100gr bullet.
Liberty created a 105 grain bullet back in the day and were using a long tungsten core so it was not longer than the 90gr but still all that weight and bearing surface is not going to help.
At this point it seems all vaporware ... typical spaghetti approach.. you know ...throw it to the wall and see if it sticks...

Can we at least agree they are missing a huge opportunity with the 6mm? We know the 6mm Hagar was too long for the tipical bullets and now is ideal for the 22 varmint ones.
IMO 22 nosler is also having issues with the rebated rim and the length could have been better in both the 22 and 6mm version for wildcatters.
That leaves ups with the usual suspects the 6mm PPC, 6x45, 6mm TCU, 6mm SPC and 6mm grendel all super easy and obviously the 6mm BR.

Plenty of options to pick up from from super easy to more complex depending on what one wants to do.
There are barrels and dies available under different names including for the AR15 so not sure why ammo makers are not paying attention to this. It is a lot more versatile imo.

Many who know me know I am a huge fan of the 22, 6, 6.5 and 7mm bullets and one can do amazing things with any of those.
The simple 223 can do amazing things with a match chamber and typical 75gr to 80gr bullets but w/o getting into more exotic
and expensive the 6mm can deliver more still in a very simple and cost efficient package. Recoil differences are not even worth mentioning.

If we already had a huge assortment of 80gr to 100gr in 22 bullets that could use standard twist this would be ideal but we know physics do not allow us to have that.
In the imaginary world I will like to have a caliber with the killing power of a 300 WM and the weight, recoil and expense of a 22LR but we know that is just the imagination.

As I get older I ask myself many times, "why" before the "how". The "how" to achieve something should be the last step of the decision making and not the first.
It seems to me simple things are always more attractive in the long run. Less becomes more in the end. Marketing folks hate to hear that but IMO their job
will be much easier if they asked the communities and listened to them. Specially the folks with real needs.

...back to work..

 

[1stmarine]

just fyi.. the predators masters has some good info too.

Also...

here is one of the 6mm wildcats versions that one can buy, AR15 barrels and dies available.

many folks would rather go for something in 22-24" unless it is for HP competition. Hunters probably
18" or 20" max.

http://www.6mmar.com/6mm_AR_Loading_Info.html

 

[Gtscotty]

The 6.8 with a 18" will put the 95gr TTSX using AA2230/Xterminator in the mid 2800's that is a proven bullet that hits like a lightning rod at the average distances folks hunt (and should hunt) with these small calibers.
This is all well proven and documented as a very effective hunting cartridge. Talk to hunters in Texas, AK, AZ, etc.. Midwest and go to hunting forums where one will find plenty of information about this simple yet proven platform.

I said right in my post that I had killed a few deer with the 6.8 and was familiar with how it works, not sure your point here.

I have never seen a 22 caliber 100gr bullet anywhere. The bullet needs speed at impact, section and proper construction to give consistency whether it is soft tissue or striking bone w/o deflection or too much fragmentation.
Any stout bonded or solid copper in 100gr will be impossible w/o further increasing the twist to what 5 twist? simple physics here.

Again..... Watch the video... It's literally right in the video. It's a fusion bullet, which is a bonded soft point line, not a mono-metal. Pretty safe assumption that they are introducing it for this cartridge. Twist rate calculation is pretty simple if you know what you're talking about, but you don't. You didn't even know they are pushing out a new bullet, how could you know how long it is? Supposition and have waving doesn't equal simple physics.

From Sierras website ... Read in red....

Yep, that is the exact bullet they are putting out loaded ammo with, recommended 6.5 twist, not 6. You referenced accurate shooter, folks over there doing the calculations are suggesting that 7 should work for most folks. Do you disagree? If so why, what do your calculations using the bullet length and cartridge velocity say? If you have to use a 6.5 twist, why is that a big deal?

So more speed, better bcs, a tad more grain, more civilized twist, huge assortment, proven tract record....

More supposition and hand waiving, what actual mag length 6-6.8 load shoots the bullets with a better BC (of the ones you posted, only the RDF has a better BC, and its longer), to a higher velocity from a 20" barrel. The whole package is what's being purportedly sold by Federal. You're the self professed expert on small bores, what are the no kidding real numbers on a whole package 6-6.8 version.

I think it is very attractive and cool but also the main selling point is not going to cut it for the folks who understand ballistics.

I understand ballistics, and shoot at longer ranges quite often, but thanks. I'm waiting for some actual ballistics, with actual loads to be posted showing how the .224 is left in the dust wind-wise by anything mag fed in an AR-15.

This is not about trashing any initiative but about giving more realistic information and expectations about what we know about this type of round.

The problem is that there is not enough information out for you to dictate what should constitute realistic expectations yet. All you've given is guesses based on loose assumptions referencing nebulous experiences of the wildcatter community.

 

[Gtscotty]

just fyi.. the predators masters has some good info too.

Also...

here is one of the 6mm wildcats versions that one can buy, AR15 barrels and dies available.

many folks would rather go for something in 22-24" unless it is for HP competition. Hunters probably
18" or 20" max.

http://www.6mmar.com/6mm_AR_Loading_Info.html

View attachment 766318

So... Similar velocities to Federal's numbers, but with a lower BC bullet and 6" more barrel? That's not that impressive...

Edit:
Also, what AR-15 magazine will feed 2.335" OAL? Whole package.

 

[1stmarine]

1:7 twist will not work with all bullets. 6.5 twist is ok but the 6 twist is the recommended by Berger (see below). That extra half inch will give
all bullets a better behavior and better ballistic coefficient and will make it more reliable specially at the alleged distances.

The data I posted above are from actual tested loads including accuracy loads that are below max.
2700fps is doable from a 20-21" barrel that is what most people need.
Competition shooters do not mind 4-6 extra inches for those extra fps.

Even with a larger 6mm hagar as donor case case it will be difficult to push past 2700fps and a 20" Barrel.

This based on the larger hagar case and 26" barrels.

http://www.6mmar.com/22_Beast.php

Federal's numbers are not there because we do not have any factual data from them.

That 2700fps is misleading because it doesn't say what they are testing this with but I am almost 100% sure is from a 24" barrel like most advertised reloading data.
I would be surprised if they can even get 2650fps from a 20" barrel in a AR. The math says they wont, and some people are already talking but also not disclosing
100% what they know to help the marketing mambo jambo.

This is from the AR15 forum....

https://www.ar15.com/forums/industry/SURG-and-224-Valkyrie-/219-285279/



Based on all this, an even heavier 100gr bullet presents more questions than answers.

We will see what folks get w/o ruining the brass.

Instead of quoting give some facts vs expectations.

 

[Jim Watson]

My Long .223 has a 6.5 twist as recommended by Sierra for their 90 gr MK. Shoots them well but if loaded hot enough to make it to 1000 yards supersonic, they will fail in flight. I had one target that was nothing but Xs, 10s, and unaccountable misses.
Bergers do OK in the 6.5, but I settled on JLK VLDs which are tough and accurate. Too bad they no longer make the 90.
But I agree it is kind of a dead end, an 80 at higher velocity is probably a better approach. Or a 6mm Whatever.

I wonder how many buyers will stick to the Valkyrie heavy bullet design basis instead of just blowing varmint bullets out as fast as they can without blowing them up in the fast twist.

 

[Jim Watson]

We need some development with 23 and 29 caliber. That's uncharted territory.

P.O. Ackley built some .23 caliber rifles for hunting in states that required "larger than .22" for game.
Handloader magazine once wrote up the 7.35mm Italian as though it were a new product. Not bad with modern powder.

 

[1stmarine]

I wonder how many buyers will stick to the Valkyrie heavy bullet design basis instead of just blowing varmint bullets out as fast as they can without blowing them up in the fast twist.

That is my concern I posted in the 1st of 2nd post. If they get fast twists for the best possible bullets for long range most people are going to have to reduce the loads or the budget lighter bullets
will vaporize in front of the muzzle. That is why the 22-250 can go so far with faster twists too.
I agree with you and the 8 or 7 twist max + keeping it to the 80-82grains is a more reasonable and practical approach. More versatility too.
For varmints, more powder and a lot more speed is complicated and the return is not proportional to the investment. Specially when one has 223R (and AI even better) that do so well with varmint
bullets like this one from hornady.... https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/223-rem-53-gr-v-max-superformance#!/
223 can do close to 2500fps wiht a 53gr bullet that is not too far behind the 22-250 typical 55gr bullet.... https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/22-250-rem-55-gr-v-max#!/
In practical scenarios most guys around here pop chucks up to 400 yards with either one ...and of course the 204 ruger, swift and the other typical ones.

Lets see what they say but I would be very surprised they break 2700fps from a 20" barrel. It doesn't add up no matter what powder one uses.

I will post some pics of my wildcats. Since photo-bucket seems to have blown all the links for everyone I have to upload all the old AR cat developments again.

More cartridges from easy to more involved.....

6mm from ARP ..it doesn't get easier than this...
http://ar15performance.com/inc/sdetail/38010/48383

Old Dtec very similar to the WOA case.
http://www.dtechuppers.com/ar-15-dti...receivers.html

Key stone put the 22 and 6mm hagar versions back in the game.
This actually can get 22 90gr to 2700fps based on the hagar case design...

http://www.keystoneaccuracy.com/220thunderbolt.html

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/thr...tform.3777341/
http://www.keystoneaccuracy.com/240tomahawkinfo.html

 

[DannyLandrum]

Would have to wholeheartedly agree with 1stMarine - should have been in 6mm. And preferably based on the Grendel case. Though maybe they chose the tapered case of the 6.8 SPC for better feeding. Or more likely they chose it because a lot of people already own 6.8 SPC sized bolt heads (more so than Grendel); thus this amps up their sales to people who don't want to buy a new bolt.

 

[Goosey]

Advertised ballistics of the four factory rounds:

Federal Premium 60 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, 3300 fps
Federal American Eagle 75 grain Total Metal Jacket, 3000 fps
Federal Premium Gold Medal 90 grain Sierra MatchKing, 2700 fps (24" barrel)
Federal Fusion MSR 100 grain Spitzer Boat Tail, 2500 fps

 

[cactus02]

If it's designed for a 90 grain bullet it's probably going to need like a 6.5:1 twist which is just silly. I think for practical purposes the 22 nosler with its 223 bolt face is much more interesting.

See you tube "Jonnys Reloading Bench " and see the troubles he had with brass in the 22 Nosler. He had chewed up brass and horrible accuracy ( 4 to 5 inches @ 100 ).

 

[Unofficial Gun Addict]

Wow... interesting thread while at the same time, troublesome. I get the feeling that some of the fellas in here are happy to consider a wildcat the norm for most shooters, and so why not just build a wildcat. The thing is, most guys don't even have a wildcat cartridge. Heck many don't even know what a wildcat cartridge is. Ask them and their going to start picture bobcats and mt lions! LOL. So... as I see it... this is a pretty damn nice way to introduce a .22 cal that has the ability to work in an AR15 lower, throwing pills from 60gr to 100gr, without having to order specialized barrels/twist rates, reloading, or all the other things you guys seem to keep gravitating to in the above commentary. Maybe I'm wrong in how I'm interpreting the thread and if so, my bad, but when I look at this cartridge, I see a better option than the 22 Nosler, just due to the case design, and something that fills a nitch for those of use who are happy to pound coyotes with the 60gr BTs... but also would like to have something with more authority (out of the same rifle) like the 90gr Spitzer Soft Point, for deer, hogs, wolf, mt. lion, etc... all out of the same rifle. Now there's a lot of great cartridges out there, don't get me wrong, but that spread in capability appeals to me... and if you ask why I don't just go with a 6.8spc or a 6.5 grendel, well... I actually like the idea of throwing light pills most of the time as coyotes are my staple... shoot the same AR15 probably 95% of the time. Without having to grab another rifle out of the cabinet, I can toss on this upper and have the same setup I'm already comfortable with and use it on this trip for coyotes, or wolf. I know you guys think this thing is outperformed by the 6mm... but try finding a 60gr BT for the 243 in a factory rifle without having to wildcat, or bump up to an AR10 platform which I can tell you is no joy to drag from coyote stand to coyote stand. That added weight is just not needed, period. I may reload for this caliber at some point, however, with the selection of bullets out currently, I don't need to if I choose not to. I honestly hope the PRS fanboys drive this caliber into the mainstream like they did the 6.5 creedmoor, because it gives another option which currently isn't filled... .22 cal for semis with that ability to throw medium to heavy bullets without reloading or wildcatting. Just my take. FYI... feel so strongly about it... I've got an upper waiting for pickup today. With me being nothing but a predator hunter, I like the flexibility this cartridge provides.

 

[farmerboy78]

Well, I'm in the valkyrie club, craddock precision is building my upper and I hope to have it in around a month. I'm also hearing that the 80gr eld can be pushed over 3000fps. So I have bought 200 waiting to be reloaded.

 

[CapnMac]

Wonder how long until some one "discovers" the merits of 7x47 (.276 pedersen) or 7x43 (.280NATO)?

 

[Crosshair]

Wonder how long until some one "discovers" the merits of 7x47 (.276 pedersen) or 7x43 (.280NATO)?

*6.5x55 yells at all the young cartridges to stay off their lawn.*

 

[Crosshair]

Aside from the ammo market, the rifle market needs new cartridges to sell new rifles. Most gun owners don't see their firearms as a consumable product, they consider them to be a durable good much like a car or a home appliance that will last for years or decades.

Ruger, with the new PC-9, is hopefully the start of a new trend. Firing a 100 year old cartridge, with magazines that have been available for decades, Ruger is finding themselves on the receiving end of a "Shut up and take my money" situation.

 

[Sutanker]

I wonder why some people go to such great lengths to prove other's opinions to be wrong, using their own opinion. BC tells the story only part way. Some people like less recoil. If life was only BC we should all shoot a .408 or .50 something. All the naysayers of any new thing sound like a bunch of liberals that don't want to let anyone have fun. I think a new cartridge is fun.