fireside44
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- Sep 22, 2009
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Do you hand load?
Yes sir. For rifles I've loaded 308, 444 marlin, 45-70, 300 win mag, and .223.
Do you hand load?
You're on a right track here. Hydrodynamic (sometimes erroneously called hydrostatic) shock is a great substitute or supplement to permanent wound cavity, and the severity of the shock is proportional to the square of velocity change caused by non-compressible tissue. When a fast, high energy bullet mushrooms rapidly several inches inside the tissue, the temporary wound cavity can be very large.The only explication I can offer is the higher impact velocity and lighter bullet construction does a better job at creating a catastrophic systems failure. They penetrate into the centerline, blow up a temporary cavity like a bunker buster, and then the shank/core punches its way out.
I'd strongly recommend either loading up the sst or an 85 gr gameking (either 4166 or 4831sc for a moderate but not hot velocity) in the .243 for your situation. Were I consistently presented with the opportunities you describe, these would be my choice.Yes sir. For rifles I've loaded 308, 444 marlin, 45-70, 300 win mag, and .223.
At the risk of an educational derailment, when you say "hasn't happened at an equivalent regularity with larger high velocity calibers," can you expand on that? I'm not quite I'm following, I've not seen a lack of consistency in cartridges clear up through .338 win mag to provide devastating temporary wound cavities......You're on a right track here. Hydrodynamic (sometimes erroneously called hydrostatic) shock is a great substitute or supplement to permanent wound cavity, and the severity of the shock is proportional to the square of velocity change caused by non-compressible tissue. When a fast, high energy bullet mushrooms rapidly several inches inside the tissue, the temporary wound cavity can be very large.
OTOH, I can't explain why the effect hasn't happened at an equivalent regularity with larger high velocity calibers. Tougher, slower opening bullets that won't create a similar pressure peak in tissue, maybe?
I've shot whitetails with lots of different calibers and my highly unscientific observations emphasize the importance of bullet placement. The longest average running distances have taken place with .44Mag, shortest with .308 and 12ga slug. Rarely do they run more than 10-20 yards unless you *honk* up the shot yourself.
The "why" has already been fairly addressed, but honestly the simple answer is that you have to understand your weapon for it to be effective, many have not understood the .243, used it improperly in one way or another, and when it did not perform as THEY expected due to their lack of enlightenment, of course it was the cartridge that took the blame. I've seen it happen often with several chamberings, but the .243 is possibly the most infamous.All my backyard deer were shot inside 100yds; 200's a long shot around here. While I've never seen the 350yds shot present itself, the deer I've killed with a .243 went down real fast... Win. 100gr PowerPoint. I've seen other local .243 users have very similar results.
Why is it the .243Win. gets labeled a ineffective women/kids thing in a crowd where so many try to act like their .223 AR-15's are so big and bad? "Mine's bigger than yours" combined with a type of short guy syndrome from guys who can't handle minimal recoil? Hmmm...
Neither have I personally. I was referring to Varminterror's earlier comment:At the risk of an educational derailment, when you say "hasn't happened at an equivalent regularity with larger high velocity calibers," can you expand on that? I'm not quite I'm following, I've not seen a lack of consistency in cartridges clear up through .338 win mag to provide devastating temporary wound cavities.......
Varminterror said:As an engineer, I wish I could explain it, but most of my .243, 6 Dasher, and 6 creed killed deer have staggered 5-10 yards and buckled, whereas most of my .270, .30-06, 7rm, 300wm killed deer have sprinted 100yrds or more.
I live on the Big Island, but was home on Molokai for a week.Lol, axis deer in Hawaii? Did not know! Are you on the big island or were you hunting another state?
lateral velocity of the expanding bullet will be a lot less due to the much larger (percentage wise) surface area of the bullet. terminal energy of the larger bullet would have to be much higher to get the larger bullet to expand at the same velocity as the 243 win pill. i'm assuming the resisting force of the tissue always stays the same regardless the bullet.OTOH, I can't explain why the effect hasn't happened at an equivalent regularity with larger high velocity calibers.
I'd strongly recommend either loading up the sst or an 85 gr gameking (either 4166 or 4831sc for a moderate but not hot velocity) in the .243 for your situation. Were I consistently presented with the opportunities you describe, these would be my choice.
I see your point, out of curiosity, stemmed from personal experiences, have you tried the browning bxr line?I’ve not taken the time to section and mic the jackets, or do stress modeling in CAD, but I tend to assume the “lightly constructed” bullets in larger calibers are proportionately tougher.
There may also be a contribution of proportionate ogive.
I can theorize about a great number of things, but then document faults in each theory. Either way, the observed effect when shooting similarly constructed bullets from a 22 cal or 6mm into game, the larger calibers put the center of the temporary cavity farther through the game and does damage proportionately more on the backside, and the game often travels farther. I started using poly-tipped bullets over 20yrs ago in 30cal, and while I am very happy with their performance in all calibers I have used them, they still don’t drop game quite the same as using the same type of bullet in a high speed 6mm.
For what it's worth, with both corelokt and powershoks, they are nothing I make light of, but they are definitely something I put in the "penetration over expansion" box. They're GREAT if you wanna blow through both shoulders, and the exit WILL be something that catches your attention, but for the no heavy bone boiler room, softer bullets get better results.I appreciate the recommendation. I have only run Rem Core-Lokt through it knowing it is probably not the best choice of ammo but I had many boxes of it and gun stuff was not priority and at the time it was my only rifle. I was doing some digging in my ammo stash and found a box of Hornady .243 SST 95 grain next to some .308 zombie max I thought I sold, lol. I just might dig out that rifle since I will have five tags and test that ammo inside 50 yards on a deer. As a comparison I just ran down to Academy and they had Hornady Black x39 123 grain SST. Never seen that stuff before so I grabbed a box. I also found some lighter soft point Tula in my stash, 124 grain I think. I kinda planned on taking two or three deer this season so maybe I'll do a fun comparison of these when season opens. Maybe my core-lokt are getting too much penetration and not enough expansion at short range as I never recover even fragment and the exit hole is fairly small.
I see your point, out of curiosity, stemmed from personal experiences, have you tried the browning bxr line?
I think physically they are not any “tougher” than a human. What they do have is a much higher pain tolerance plus the animal instinct to survive.
I just shoot Federals blue boxYeah, no critter laughs at my .243, do you handload? I've had some factory load bullets fail to meet my standards, but I'm not undergunned with my .243 at your ranges (or further being truthful). Also, what barrel twist are you running?
A buddy of mine brought some out a couple seasons back, and yes, in theory, the tip disintegrates to provide rapid expansion....... my initial thought was "oh look another ballistic tip"........yes and no....they're very violent, I would like to get them as components because I don't buy factory ammo either anymore but WOULD like to see them at my press. @LoonWulf would definitely appreciate them I think, they're right in the grenade first, maybe exit later category, not a splash wound, but definitely more explosive than what I've gotten a 95 gr nb tip to do outta the .243 so far. ...perhaps more similar to a berger.... (at least the small sample of bergers I've played with so far).I haven’t. I rarely shoot factory ammo, and other than seeing it on the shelf at my local cabela’s, I wouldn’t have known they were making the BXR ammo.
Hazarding a guess, does the polymer bonded copper-dust tip fracture like a safety slug, instead of driving itself through the rest of the bullet almost perfectly intact like a conventional polymer tip?
Bullet performance is next to shot placement. I use a 7-08 as I think it has a wider envelope of performance. Some folks use bullets on Whitetails that are much better suited to much bigger game. Bullets that do not expand fully in the target therefor the energy is wasted in thin air. Deer are usually less than a foot thick in the kill zone. A bullet that doesn't expand in 4-6 inches and retain weight is not as useful even if it is bigger. I shake my head at folks that use 180 grain tough bullets on deer. I actually like 55 grain soft point .223's at closer ranges. That's why they were invented. I also prefer heart shots as nothing survives a serious heart wound. Anything else is iffy.This has not been my experience in killing deer with 243’s and larger calibers. As an engineer, I wish I could explain it, but most of my .243, 6 Dasher, and 6 creed killed deer have staggered 5-10 yards and buckled, whereas most of my .270, .30-06, 7rm, 300wm killed deer have sprinted 100yrds or more. The only explication I can offer is the higher impact velocity and lighter bullet construction does a better job at creating a catastrophic systems failure. They penetrate into the centerline, blow up a temporary cavity like a bunker buster, and then the shank/core punches its way out. Alternatively, in trying to replicate this means of killing with a larger caliber and cartridge, I tend to see the carnage starting past the centerline, with more exit damage and less done in the front side. Naturally, in either case, I recovered the deer to make these observations, so they all “worked,” but the fast 6mm rounds have a certain balance which isn’t found in the larger cartridges.
A small hole in and out, with a long-living deer after being hit with a 243win is most likely either a bad shot, or a bullet too hard.
It really doesn’t take 150grn of bullet and 60grn of powder to kill whitetails.
I pulled a bullet from decent size buck where the wound had healed up completely. From investigation it was likely a 165 balistic tip from either mine or my buddies gun (both were shooting 06s) round hit high lung, missed ribs and stoped under the off side shoulder. likely just dinged one or both lungs.also prefer heart shots as nothing survives a serious heart wound. Anything else is iffy.