.25 ACP loads

[Pyro]

Yes another thread all about that "anemic" .25 bullet that can be stopped by a sheet of paper.
I do have a little .25 auto I had recently fixed and am thinking of carrying it as a bug. Now before you all start hatin', please keep it on topic.
Now I am curious since there is a a few different choices of ammunition to choose from with (what I found) varying degrees of use. Please correct me if I'm wrong I'm just going off of research and my own thought.

50G FMJ= The normal ball round, good for penetration through soft flesh but shooting center mass there is a chance of deflection off the rib cage; although the deflection has a chance of being minor and the round still penetrating through. Head shots, I've heard too many stories of these bullets just bouncing off or traveling around the skull. Neck/face/center mass seems to be the most likely place you would need to shoot someone if you want to bring him down.

35G JHP= If the penetration of the FMJ wasn't iffy enough, they make hollow point rounds for this caliber (one worker at Dicks I talked to was almost astonished they would make JHP in .25). Forget about center mass shots with this stuff, that's if it can even penetrate enough to expand after passing through some layers of clothing. I have been told that these are able to penetrate the skull, unlike the FMJ rounds, for the reason of their much higher velocity and any glancing shots are increased by the "edge" of the bullet cavity. Neck shots would be promising as well, so I will place this stuff as a need to shoot at neck/head/face.

Then there is the .45 Expanding Point Winchester makes...and I can't really see any advantage towards this round. It's almost between the FMJ and the JHP in velocity and expansion, although tests through layers of denim has shown the round will not expand. The tests from brassfetcher show they experimented with the round having the ball removed, making it a bubba'd JHP; but did not actually measure the bullet for expansion, only penetration (although with the .25 penetration is key).

I look at the .25 auto not so much as a killing round but as a deterrent round. IMO the FMJ would be the way to go, since you have a much greater chance of penetration even if the bullet cannot at times enter the skull; doesn't mean the bullet tracking around the skull can't end up in his neck. The JHP are tempting, but think that is simply they are JHP and everyone thinks of the JHP as being one of those superman-stopper one shot super bullets, although you have a much greater chance of actually stopping him if you have skull penetration; you still need to actually shoot him in the head though!

Ah who I am I kidding, I should just trade it in for a .32 or .380 at the next gun show

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

Go fmj all the way. Feeds better, penetrates as good as it will, and is easier to find and train with. FMJ bullets are cheaper to reload. Also, the velocity is so slow, reliable expansion of the HP's is probably unlikely anyway. A .25 is better than .00 (no gun at all), and carries concealed better than most.

 

[Samari Jack]

My wife's dad had a .25 that he carried in an ankle holster we inherited. It is heavier than the current batch of 380s and some 9mm. I wouldn't buy one but since we have it, it's fun to mess with. When I do carry it, I figure it's range is 5 feet or less, hopefully less.

Early in my life, I was a paramedic. I've seen shootings where a .25 hit high on the forehead and circled to the back. We also had a guy shot in the throat, went all the way through and out the back of his neck and destroyed nothing vital. At least it seemed that way. After an hour in the ER he checked himself out AMA or against medical advice. I've heard the good Lord looks out after fools and drunks. This guy qualified on both accounts. The holes a .25 make are more like a big ice pick with no shock to the surrounding tissue. I also held the hand of a young women who committed suicide by putting a .25 to her temple. There was no exit wound. I figured our response time was 6 minutes or so and on the scene another 5-7 minutes before she died. She would respond to my touch by gripping my hand and would mouth unrecognizable sounds. I always wondered if she actually was conscious of what was going on. Not that I plan on doing myself in with a gun or otherwise but if I did it wouldn't be with a .25.

 

[Pyro]

We also had a guy shot in the throat, went all the way through and out the back of his neck and destroyed nothing vital.

Now that's lucky.

Now say if I decide to up it to .32, would the same ideology be applied? Penetration>Expansion

 

[BCRider]

If you already had a gun that shoots .25acp I guess it would make sense to get to know it.

But if you're shopping for a gun as a BUG or small carry it seems to make sense to me to find the small size that you want and then to buy it in the biggest caliber it comes in.

The flip side would be the.... uh... well, the flip. A small gun shooting a bigger cartridge obviously kicks and flips more. So the selection of caliber has to be tempered by the shooter's ability to not flinch at the recoil and to place shots accurately and to be able to recover from the muzzle flip and get off repeat followup shots quickly and accurately. Much of this will depend on how well the grip of the gun matches the shooter's hand(s). A bad mismatch to the hand will result in a loss of proper support and allow the gun to shift in the shooter's grip to excess. Something that would make for really bad accuracy in any followup shots.

And obviously what is tolerable recoil to one shooter is hellish recoil to another. Ideally you want to find a buddy with the gun you're looking at to try it or a rental range or hook up with someone in your area and trade them a box of ammo for some test time with their gun.

 

[147 Grain]

IF you must use the 25 ACP as your only BUG option, then see if the 50-gr. FMJ feeds reliably in your pistol and if you have to use it in a SD scenario, quickly unload the entire magazine into the BG's Thoracic Triangle area between the armpits and the base of the throat. This is likely your only option here.

Also suggest you consider practicing rapid fire drills at the range with this grossly underpowdered Mouse Gun and look for a used 38 snubnose and load it with Buffalo Bore's short barrel 158-gr. FBI load (#20C) or their 100-gr. Hardcast.

 

[mhphoto]

I'm sure that enough people over the years have been killed with .25s to justify their use as a defense round—at least as a last resort defense round. I wouldn't carry it as a primary carry unless I absolutely had nothing else. I would feel slightly under-gunned, but it's better than nothing.

I'm not sure, however, about a 35gr JHP round being able to penetrate a skull and a 50gr FMJ round not being able to. Something about that seems wrong in the physics department. Wouldn't the heavier FMJ round both have more energy when it hit and not have the hollow point structure to help dissipate is energy before it got into the brain? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, it just seems like the heavier FMJ would penetrate better than a lighter HP.

 

[Jim K]

I know we are not supposed to use derogatory words on this site, but I think use of the following term is justified.

Anyone who says the .25 ACP is harmless or won't penetrate a sheet of paper is an

IDIOT.

Jim

 

[Ben86]

I recommend fmj for anything bellow .380. A jhp just isn't suited for a bullet that is that light, small and traveling so slow. A .25 is still better than a knife or stick. I'd own one as a fun gun if the ammo wasn't so expensive and hard to get.

 

[481]

If forced to carry a .25 Auto, I'd opt for a 50 grain FMJ @ ~700 fps which will provide about 12-14 inches of soft tissue penetration. The round is easily deflected as you've already noted, so putting as many rounds into the target as quickly as possible seems the wisest plan of action. Center of mass (lower than the upper chest which is laden with mnay bony structures) might be a better prefered target area, but one may not have the luxury of an optimal target presentation either so one must take what one can get.

"Stepping up" in caliber, even if it is a 'nominal' step like the .32ACP, is always desirable and I'd encourage it if you can. Having a .25 is better than having nothing at all, but the confidence that can be gained through the employment of a larger, more "able" caliber is priceless when your bacon is hanging over the fire.

 

[Ben86]

Even if the little .25 bullets are defected and don't penetrate the skull they are still likely to knock the perp out temporarily, giving you time to escape. It's still a chunk of metal smacking into your skull faster than anyone could throw it.

 

[Pyro]

Wouldn't the heavier FMJ round both have more energy when it hit and not have the hollow point structure to help dissipate is energy before it got into the brain?

I've seen shootings where a .25 hit high on the forehead and circled to the back.

I've heard this happening even with raccoons . It's just that the .25 is so underpowered it can be deflected easily by the structure of a skull. The physics behind the 35 grain is that it is moving at about 350 fps more then the 50 grain fmj is that the faster round would simply break through the bone before or while breaking up.

 

[stinger 327]

How about Magsafe in .25 auto. I shot a 2 x 4 with this .25 using HP, FMJ and Magsafe and the Magsafe did the most devistating damage.

 

[147 Grain]

Magsafe = low penetration / superficial damage that will get you killed! Suggest you with a heavy FMJ to put more odds in your favor.

 

[stinger 327]

Magsafe = low penetration / superficial damage that will get you killed! Suggest you with a heavy FMJ to put more odds in your favor.

I have heard of this before and was told to use FMJ to take advantage of the penetration to get the most of this as the velocity on .25 ACP is just too low to expand in HP form so penetration is the key here plus FMJ less chance of jams.
Who makes the highest velocity .25 ACP FMJ bullets? Fiocchi? what is the ideal weight in grains?

 

[Pyro]

I've been told the only JHP .25 round that expands reliably is the Hornady XTP.

 

[stinger 327]

I've been told the only JHP .25 round that expands reliably is the Hornady XTP.

What are the ballistics on the Hornady XTP and velocity?

 

[josephbw]

Here's some .25 acp data from Handloads.com, for what it's worth.


http://handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=3&Weight=All

 

[Pyro]

What are the ballistics on the Hornady XTP and velocity?

http://www.hornady.com/store/25-Auto-35-gr-XTP/
It might just be the design of the bullet itself, I've just been told that Hornady would expand more reliable then Speer or Fiocchi.

 

[Cowboybootnut]

"25 ACP loads
Yes another thread all about that "anemic" .25 bullet that can be stopped by a sheet of paper."

Geez, I thought a gust of wind could stop it.

Just kidding. I would not take a bullet from a .25 acp, it can kill - depending on placement and (like anything) luck.

 

[stinger 327]

http://www.hornady.com/store/25-Auto-35-gr-XTP/
It might just be the design of the bullet itself, I've just been told that Hornady would expand more reliable then Speer or Fiocchi.

Does Cabela's or Nanchez shooting supplies sell this ammo? I notice that it is slighter more velocity 900 fps than the standard .25 which is usually 700-800 fps.

 

[stinger 327]

"25 ACP loads
Yes another thread all about that "anemic" .25 bullet that can be stopped by a sheet of paper."

Geez, I thought a gust of wind could stop it.

Just kidding. I would not take a bullet from a .25 acp, it can kill - depending on placement and (like anything) luck.

Police officers and civilians have been killed by this caliber. One thing always comes up with the .22 LR being a superior round to the .25 ACP but it isn't because even though there are hot .22 loads like Stinger HP or Stinger Segmented HP and Aguilar ammo rated at 1,750 fps, rim fire ammo is unreliable in misfires unlike the centerfire .25 ACP which more than not goes bang and misfires in an auto is worse because everything stops at this point.

 

[stinger 327]

Here's some .25 acp data from Handloads.com, for what it's worth.


http://handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=3&Weight=All

Very interesting is this reflective in what .25 ammo is mostly available in which would be FMJ?
That expanding point from Winchester with the bb in the nose has been around forever.

 

[Pyro]

Does Cabela's or Nanchez shooting supplies sell this ammo?

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?productNumber=205340

hot .22 loads like Stinger HP or Stinger Segmented HP and Aguilar ammo rated at 1,750 fps

The majority of those tests are from rifles, I am curious what the velocity would be out of a 2inch barrel of a Jennings.

That expanding point from Winchester with the bb in the nose has been around forever.

What exactly is that bb supposed to do? In a brassfetcher test it did not help with expansion nor did it help with penetration, they also tested a Winchester 50g FMJ which penetrated about 15 inches (2 inches more then the expanding point).
http://www.brassfetcher.com/index_files/Page1453.htm

Bullet recovered [Winchester expanding point] average diameter – 0.250”

 

[788Ham]

I've heard more stories about .22's being used to kill deer, I know its not an excepted round for big game hunting, never heard of a .25 ever being used though. I also know there aren't many deer roaming the streets looking to rape and maim either. I think I'd rather choose a .22 over a .25, whether FMJ, HP, or BB types. YMMV