.25 ACP loads

[The Lone Haranguer]

It makes some sense as a BUG, but I view .25 ACP for self defense as I do .22 LR: don't use it unless you simply have nothing else. I think, in this cartridge, FMJ is your best bet. While I am not usually a fan of "staggered" loadings, a case could be made for alternating FMJ with the 35-gr. hollowpoint.

Anyone who says the .25 ACP is harmless or won't penetrate a sheet of paper is an

IDIOT.

I'm sure the OP was using just a bit of sarcasm and hyperbole.

 

[481]

What exactly is that bb supposed to do? In a brassfetcher test it did not help with expansion nor did it help with penetration...

You answered your own question.

Conventional JHPs rely upon hydraulic forces (generated by fluid/liquid flow into their cavities) to drive their expansion.

The BB obstructs this function and inhibits expansion since it will not deform (its yield strength is much greater than that of the of the bullet cavity material surrounding it) at the speeds and under the dynamic forces that a .25ACP is capable of producing. Its presence there renders the JHP effectively a FMJ.

 

[Pyro]

I'm sure the OP was using just a bit of sarcasm and hyperbole.

 

[stinger 327]

You answered your own question.

Conventional JHPs rely upon hydraulic forces (generated by fluid/liquid flow into their cavities) to drive their expansion.

The BB obstructs this function and inhibits expansion since it will not deform (its yield strength is much greater than that of the of the bullet cavity material surrounding it) at the speeds and under the dynamic forces that a .25ACP is capable of producing. Its presence there renders the JHP effectively a FMJ.

I had heard that this particuliar bullet wasn't effective to expand.

 

[stinger 327]

If forced to carry a .25 Auto, I'd opt for a 50 grain FMJ @ ~700 fps which will provide about 12-14 inches of soft tissue penetration. The round is easily deflected as you've already noted, so putting as many rounds into the target as quickly as possible seems the wisest plan of action. Center of mass (lower than the upper chest which is laden with mnay bony structures) might be a better prefered target area, but one may not have the luxury of an optimal target presentation either so one must take what one can get.

"Stepping up" in caliber, even if it is a 'nominal' step like the .32ACP, is always desirable and I'd encourage it if you can. Having a .25 is better than having nothing at all, but the confidence that can be gained through the employment of a larger, more "able" caliber is priceless when your bacon is hanging over the fire.

Step up to .32 ACP using Buffalo Bore ammo 75 grain bullet rated around 1150 fps.

 

[481]

Step up to .32 ACP using Buffalo Bore ammo 75 grain bullet rated around 1150 fps.

I'll say. Assuming that the bullet offers 'reliable' expansion, that's one heckuva little load right there!

 

[mustang_steve]

I carry a .25 for defense, with 50gr FMJ, I want to try Glasers though as they'll ultimately penetrate about as deep as the JHP, but leave a pretty substantial wound channel in that little depth.

Why a .25? Because I need to leave it in the car often, and it's easier to remove and replace a pocket holster than it is a IWB. I also have no intent on being some kind of superhero. If my meanface and seven rounds can't deter them, I doubt having 10 rounds of 9mm would have either.

Here's the raw numbers on the most common ammunition I could find as of a few months ago. These are all manufacturer's figures:

Production .25acp ammo manufacturer data as of 10.17.2010
Federal/Am. Eagle 50gr FMJ/ 760fps / 64ft-lb
Remington UMC 50gr fmj / 760 / 64 ft-lb (Same specs with Rem P&R)
WInchester USA FMJ (same as remington)
Winchester EXP 45gr expanding tip / 815 / 66
Fiocchi 25xtp 35gr jhp / 900 / 62.9
Fiocchi 25ap 50gr fmj / 800 / 71
Blazer 50gr fmj / 755 / 63
Glaser Safety Slug 35 / 1100 / 94
Hornady XTP JHP 35gr / 900 / 63
PMC Bronze 50gr FMJ / 750 / 62

 

[481]

steve,

If you don't mind sayin', what brand/make of .25 pistol are you carrying?

Just curious.

 

[redbullitt]

I gotta vote fmj as well. Great reliable shape for easy feeding.

Use what you got. If you are good at shooting it, then it will work fine.

If you are seriously looking to trade it and want a small weapon, then look at the LCP or LCR. Still small enough to carry just about anywhere with plenty of bite.

 

[Billy Shears]

Even if I had a .25 (would have to be given or inherited, as I'd never buy one), I still wouldn't carry it. I'd sell it and use the money toward the purchase of a better gun.

But if I HAD to use one... Well, FMJ. I don't think .25 ACP hollowpoints have the velocity to expand reliably, or if they do, it would probably only be at the cost of losing so much penetration, they'd expand, but not punch deep enough to hit anything vital. So load up with ball, and if you ever have to use it, get close and empty the gun at the assailant (preferably into his face), otherwise I think you just won't do enough damage to stop an attacker with a peashooter like that.

 

[mustang_steve]

481,

It's an Astra Cub, 1966 produciton year. Think Colt Junior, as the Colt was just a re-branded Cub.

Design wise, it's very similar to the Browning vest-pocket deisgn, just without the additional grip safety and with an external hammer.

They're accurate, reliable and cheap...you can find them at pawnshops in my area from $150-200 depending on condition. I paid $170 for mine.

Here's a pic of it next to my sccy (same size as a KT P11) for size comparison:

 

[browningguy]

I have a Beretta 21 and a Vest Pocket Browning. WHen I carry them as a pocket gun I have them loaded with the Hornady 35gr. load. It's such a low powered round I feel like getting all the velocity I can, and I don't expect it to expand either.

This cartridge has been around longer than most, and has dispatched plenty of people. If used as a last ditch weapon it is much better than a stick. Having said that, my normal carry guns are a pair of BHP's in .40.

 

[cleardiddion]

I have a friend who inherited a little .25 from her father a few years back (and I had THR's help identifying it about a year back). She doesn't have her CHP but does plan on getting it some time.

But, for the moment it sits hidden in a bookshelf in the living room loaded up with 50gr FMJ. Not really a man stopper but it's something if she or her husband isn't able to reach their .45.

 

[481]

481,

It's an Astra Cub, 1966 produciton year. Think Colt Junior, as the Colt was just a re-branded Cub.

Design wise, it's very similar to the Browning vest-pocket deisgn, just without the additional grip safety and with an external hammer.

They're accurate, reliable and cheap...you can find them at pawnshops in my area from $150-200 depending on condition. I paid $170 for mine.

steve,

Never heard of this gun 'til now. Neat little gun, reminds me quite a bit of the Beretta pocket auto designs.

I'll have to do a little research on these pistols since I've just learned something new here and will be keeping an open eye for them at gun shows when I am out next.

Thanks!

 

[mustang_steve]

481,

Just keep in mind that there are none post 68 in the US, at least legally. This was one of the "non sporting handguns" that got nailed in the 68 GCA. They were produced for about 10 years of US importation.

The Colt Was the one that you'd see lots of post-68 models, as they had a semi-finished Cub imported, and they'd blue and assemble it here, thus bypassing the law in a way. You will see well over 10 years of it being around.

Ironically, the colt costs about twice as much , despite being the same gun.

Also be weary of the "other" Astra Cub...it came in 2 calibers. 25ACP was the "big" caliber, the other was .22short.

Original mags for the Astra will be nickle plated and have the mark of Firearms International in Washington DC. The aftermatket triple-K mags (still in production) are blued. Also note it's supposed to be a 6-round mag, but I can fit 7 in mine, but only do that if it's about to be used to load the pistol.

For Holsters, If you take a number 1 Uncle Mike's and take a needle and some thread to it, it'll do. If not, the pistol slides around in the holster a bit. Yep...the smallest holster Uncle Mike's makes is too big. I did joke around once about making a pocket holster out of a pack of Camel Wides, but I really don't like the idea of buying cigarettes just to throw them out to use the box for "crafts" (I don't smoke).

 

[Clark]

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


The standard published load for 25 acp is 1.8 gr Bullseye 50 gr.
That will penetrate 250 pages of a phone book.
If I work that up to 3.2 gr Bullseye, it will penetrate 770 page, but the case is full of powder and the recoil is still wimpy.

If I work up to 6 gr Power Pistol, the primer is at the threshold of falling out and the recoil hurts awful.

Just 4 gr of Power Pistol still hurts awful.

 

[Pyro]

If you don't mind sayin', what brand/make of .25 pistol are you carrying?

FIE Titan E27b

Shot 1 - Remington UMC 50 gr MC. Impacted at 807 ± 0.500 ft/sec and penetrated to 14.0 ± 0.031". Recovered diameter was 0.250 ± 0.0005". Track outlined in light blue.

Shot 2 - Hornady 35 gr XTP JHP. Impacted at 931 ± 0.500 ft/sec and penetrated to 6.7 ± 0.031". Recovered diameter was 0.369 ± 0.0005". Track outlined in yellow.

Well here is evidence that the Hornady's will expand, well at least in gel. The expansion as you see it expanded just as rapidly (if not earlier) then what I believe is a .40 S&W JHP. As Samari Jack told earlier of a man getting shot through the neck without any vitals hit, I do believe a JHP such as this would have made a difference. Chest shots, the edges of the JHP can at least provide a cutting surface even if it does not penetrate as deeply as a FMJ. I am curious if the JHP have enough oomph to either brake/deflect past bone and keep goin. It's the old 'fast n light' vs 'slow n heavy' argument.

 

[stinger 327]

I'll say. Assuming that the bullet offers 'reliable' expansion, that's one heckuva little load right there!

I forget the kind of tip it is called but it's a lead flat top kind of tip. Bullet feels nose heavy for a .32 ACP.

 

[stinger 327]

http://www.hornady.com/store/25-Auto-35-gr-XTP/
It might just be the design of the bullet itself, I've just been told that Hornady would expand more reliable then Speer or Fiocchi.

The Hornady is a 35 JHP but at what velocity?
This is the same Hornady ammo demonstrated in gel block above?

 

[Pyro]

The Hornady is a 35 JHP but at what velocity?
This is the same Hornady ammo demonstrated in gel block above?

Yes the same as in the gel block photo.
They usually run at around 900+ Fps.

 

[stinger 327]

Yes the same as in the gel block photo.
They usually run at around 900+ Fps.

Yes that's the one I see that Natchez Shooting Supplies sells this.

 

[Pyro]

Yes that's the one I see that Natchez Shooting Supplies sells this.

This winter I might get some and do some tests through clothing into water, I'm curious how those little buggers will fair.

 

[stinger 327]

This winter I might get some and do some tests through clothing into water, I'm curious how those little buggers will fair.

This load is only 100 fps more than the standard load but is much lighter at 35 grains vs. the standard 50 grain .25 ACP.

 

[Pyro]

This load is only 100 fps more than the standard load but is much lighter at 35 grains vs. the standard 50 grain .25 ACP.

Yes I know, but I haven't seen any tests done regarding clothing penetration and expansion with a 35g JHP. I guess I will have to play around with them.

 

[stinger 327]

Yes I know, but I haven't seen any tests done regarding clothing penetration and expansion with a 35g JHP. I guess I will have to play around with them.

Post your results when you get them.