270 Win. In brush country?

[jeffk3630]

I just got a used Savage 110 in 270 Win. for deer season this year. I know the 270 Win. is an out standing caliber for deer but I live in P.A. and the woods are thick. Will the 270 Win be a good caliber for the woods vs. open country? What bullet weight do you recommend 130 gr. or 150 gr.?

 

[Doc7]

Think it's as good in the woods as anywhere, with the limitation being barrel length vs handiness. In PA am I right in thinking you are hunting from a tree stand? Handiness probably not a huge factor. Bullet weight depends on the terminal ballistic you're after. If you hit a stick with either, or most any other round, you're not going to hit where you aimed regardless.

 

[1stmarine]

If it is really thick lets say from a tree stand or a blind then most modern firearms will show some substantial deflection obviously depending on what they hit.
So a 270 might not be the ideal vs. a slower and larger moving caliber and then you compensate speed with section and grain.
I would say the 35 caliber and above is when you start to see less deflection even when hitting 1/2 inch branches or so.
Even with the popular 308 and 30-06 heaviest bullets you see substantial deflection in thick woods like shooting from a tree or through some bushes.
358 winchester(308) and 35 whelen(30-06) are very easy to own and IMO perfect balance and with heavy bullets even better for thick forest.
They are also both a great substitute for a magnum at the distances most people hunt. I mean they are pretty brutal in terms of terminal results yet they use less powder.
A number of 375 calibers are also great and those are the two calibers where you are going to see still some decent performance before you jump into the .40's and .50's.
Of course the grand daddy is the 45/70 but one might find more versatile a 450 marlin because if you keep going up recoil and expense goes up pretty fast.
444 marlin is another classic brush with lots of power to spare but not the more effective ballistics of the 35 or 375.
I mean, one can find very good ballistics in .416 and 50 calibers but those are reserved for very large cases like Wtby, BMG and offspring. Totally unrealistic for this use.
Hard to say w/o knowing more about the conditions so think about it.
Needeless to say an accurate shotgun with a heavy and effective slug is also a great brush solution. One just have to keep in mind the ballistics and accuracy although
hornady and nosler have some pretty decent bullets to use in sabots with an accurate shotgun. Don't expect a huge ballistic improvement but it gives a lot more reach.
Anyway in thick forest shots are normally 50 yards or less, with a few exceptions.
Very thick forest I am thinking a handy rifle not too long and send them grain!
I hope this makes sense.
In terms of open country the 270 is a very nice round, accurate, flat shooting and it hits very hard. with preminum bonded or solids no need to go over 120-130gr IMO.
Speed at impact is more important than grain to achieve proper activation of the bullet and maximum effect. If it was a large animal then more SD and grain will help with penetration but not need more for a white tail or hog.

 

[jeffk3630]

Think it's as good in the woods as anywhere, with the limitation being barrel length vs handiness. In PA am I right in thinking you are hunting from a tree stand? Handiness probably not a huge factor. Bullet weight depends on the terminal ballistic you're after. If you hit a stick with either, or most any other round, you're not going to hit where you aimed regardless.

Thanks for the reply . I don't hunt out of a stand mostly still hunting or a natural blind. There is a old wise tale around here, you need a have round nose bullet to bust trough the brush. Some people say the lighter pointed bullets get deflected hitting small saplings on the way to the target.

 

[Corn-Picker]

I just got a used Savage 110 in 270 Win. for deer season this year. I know the 270 Win. is an out standing caliber for deer but I live in P.A. and the woods are thick. Will the 270 Win be a good caliber for the woods vs. open country? What bullet weight do you recommend 130 gr. or 150 gr.?

As long as the bullet is appropriately tough (e.g. bonded or mono) you'll be fine. The bullet will be going 3000 fps+ on close shots, too fast for a traditional cup and core bullet according to most people.

 

[Corn-Picker]

Thanks for the reply . I don't hunt out of a stand mostly still hunting or a natural blind. There is a old wise tale around here, you need a have round nose bullet to bust trough the brush. Some people say the lighter pointed bullets get deflected hitting small saplings on the way to the target.

In my opinion the smaller bullet is less likely to be deflected, because it's less likely to hit brush in the first place.

 

[redneck2]

There is a old wise tale around here, you need a have round nose bullet to bust trough the brush. Some people say the lighter pointed bullets get deflected hitting small saplings on the way to the target.

Few years back I had a shot at a HUGE buck. Had watched him bedded down for maybe 30 minutes. He was directly silhouetted against the setting sun when he stood up. 40 yards, broadside. 12 gauge with copper solids. I could hit a tennis ball at 125 yards consistently

Three shots, all missed.

I couldn't see the small willow bush in the sunlight that was in front of my muzzle, maybe 10-12 feet away. Branches maybe the size of a lead pencil or smaller. The myth of a brush buster is that. A myth.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

In my opinion the smaller bullet is less likely to be deflected, because it's less likely to hit brush in the first place.

Yep, it's so skinny it will just squeeze by that little bush...

OP, I know a few people in PA that use .270. More use .30-06. I know a couple that use 7mm Rem Mag. I know one that uses a 300 win mag and another a 300 RUM. Just because these are guns that have been used for long shots, doesn't mean they are bad for shorter brush shots.

Set your zero at 100 yards, and it will be deer accurate from 0-200 yards without a thought.

 

[jeffk3630]

If it is really thick lets say from a tree stand or a blind then most modern firearms will show some substantial deflection obviously depending on what they hit.
So a 270 might not be the ideal vs. a slower and larger moving caliber and then you compensate speed with section and grain.
I would say the 35 caliber and above is when you start to see less deflection even when hitting 1/2 inch branches or so.
Even with the popular 308 and 30-06 heaviest bullets you see substantial deflection in thick woods like shooting from a tree or through some bushes.
358 winchester(308) and 35 whelen(30-06) are very easy to own and IMO perfect balance and with heavy bullets even better for thick forest.
They are also both a great substitute for a magnum at the distances most people hunt. I mean they are pretty brutal in terms of terminal results yet they use less powder.
A number of 375 calibers are also great and those are the two calibers where you are going to see still some decent performance before you jump into the .40's and .50's.
Of course the grand daddy is the 45/70 but one might find more versatile a 450 marlin because if you keep going up recoil and expense goes up pretty fast.
444 marlin is another classic brush with lots of power to spare but not the more effective ballistics of the 35 or 375.
I mean, one can find very good ballistics in .416 and 50 calibers but those are reserved for very large cases like Wtby, BMG and offspring. Totally unrealistic for this use.
Hard to say w/o knowing more about the conditions so think about it.
Needeless to say an accurate shotgun with a heavy and effective slug is also a great brush solution. One just have to keep in mind the ballistics and accuracy although
hornady and nosler have some pretty decent bullets to use in sabots with an accurate shotgun. Don't expect a huge ballistic improvement but it gives a lot more reach.
Anyway in thick forest shots are normally 50 yards or less, with a few exceptions.
Very thick forest I am thinking a handy rifle not too long and send them grain!
I hope this makes sense.
In terms of open country the 270 is a very nice round, accurate, flat shooting and it hits very hard. with preminum bonded or solids no need to go over 120-130gr IMO.
Speed at impact is more important than grain to achieve proper activation of the bullet and maximum effect. If it was a large animal then more SD and grain will help with penetration but not need more for a white tail or hog.

If it is really thick lets say from a tree stand or a blind then most modern firearms will show some substantial deflection obviously depending on what they hit.
So a 270 might not be the ideal vs. a slower and larger moving caliber and then you compensate speed with section and grain.
I would say the 35 caliber and above is when you start to see less deflection even when hitting 1/2 inch branches or so.
Even with the popular 308 and 30-06 heaviest bullets you see substantial deflection in thick woods like shooting from a tree or through some bushes.
358 winchester(308) and 35 whelen(30-06) are very easy to own and IMO perfect balance and with heavy bullets even better for thick forest.
They are also both a great substitute for a magnum at the distances most people hunt. I mean they are pretty brutal in terms of terminal results yet they use less powder.
A number of 375 calibers are also great and those are the two calibers where you are going to see still some decent performance before you jump into the .40's and .50's.
Of course the grand daddy is the 45/70 but one might find more versatile a 450 marlin because if you keep going up recoil and expense goes up pretty fast.
444 marlin is another classic brush with lots of power to spare but not the more effective ballistics of the 35 or 375.
I mean, one can find very good ballistics in .416 and 50 calibers but those are reserved for very large cases like Wtby, BMG and offspring. Totally unrealistic for this use.
Hard to say w/o knowing more about the conditions so think about it.
Needeless to say an accurate shotgun with a heavy and effective slug is also a great brush solution. One just have to keep in mind the ballistics and accuracy although
hornady and nosler have some pretty decent bullets to use in sabots with an accurate shotgun. Don't expect a huge ballistic improvement but it gives a lot more reach.
Anyway in thick forest shots are normally 50 yards or less, with a few exceptions.
Very thick forest I am thinking a handy rifle not too long and send them grain!
I hope this makes sense.
In terms of open country the 270 is a very nice round, accurate, flat shooting and it hits very hard. with preminum bonded or solids no need to go over 120-130gr IMO.
Speed at impact is more important than grain to achieve proper activation of the bullet and maximum effect. If it was a large animal then more SD and grain will help with penetration but not need more for a white tail or hog.

Thanks for taking the time to reply . This makes a lot of sense to me. I mostly hunt in the county where I live ( shotgun only ) with an 870 and a slug barrel. But the 270 I just got was at a price I could not pass up. I an thinking of going up to northern part of the state in rifle country. I guess I will go with biggest bullet I can get and hope for the best.

 

[jmr40]

Your 270 is a BETTER brush gun than typical lever action rounds like 30-30 etc. All bullets deflect in brush, the key is to shoot through holes in the brush with an accurate rifle. The traditional lever action rounds when zeroed at 100 yards will be anywhere from 2-3" above, or below, your line of sight between the muzzle out to 150 yards and 2 MOA accuracy is typical.

A typical load from a 270, 308, 30-06 etc. will be no more than 1/2 above, or below, your line of sight at the same distances and most any of them will shoot 1 MOA or better. If you are shooting at a baseball size opening at a deer 50 yards away in thick brush the accurate rifle is far more likely to make the shot while avoiding the brush. If you don't have an opening, don't shoot until you do.

A good quality scope also makes it easier to see those branches and avoid them. It also gives you an extra 30 minutes to an hour of hunting time in the morning AND evening when it would be impossible to see iron sights in thick woods. Exactly the time when game is most likely to be moving.

That said there is some evidence that some bullets deflect LESS in brush than others. They still deflect, just not as much. And it has nothing to do with bullet weight, diameter or velocity. Pointed bullets have most of their weight in the rear of the bullet. When they encounter brush they start to wobble more than round nose bullets since they have most of their weight in the front half of the bullet.

If you were to load round nose bullets in any cartridge, any bullet weight, any velocity, you'd have a theoretical edge to hit game after hitting brush. It depends on how far the bullet has to travel after hitting the brush. If only a few feet or inches it may not deflect enough to matter. But if it encounters brush several yards from the animal it could deflect enough to miss.

Your 270 will do just fine. I'd use the bullet that shot best. The 150's are better suited for larger game like elk or moose, but there are no negatives to using them on deer if they shoot well for you.

 

[Corn-Picker]

Yep, it's so skinny it will just squeeze by that little bush...

The probability that your bullet hits brush in the first place is proportional to the frontal area of the bullet. A 12 gauge slug is 6.5 times as likely to hit a piece of brush as a 270 bullet is (because it has 6.5 times the frontal area).

 

[PapaG]

Since there is no such thing as a true "brush busting" caliber (dozens of tests done by more dozens of testers over decades of years), what does it matter? Take the clear shot or don't shoot. It is that simple. My son and I have each missed a deer due to a deflection caused by a branch not seen on an otherwise clean shot. (30 years apart, similar conditions).
Faced with a shot at a twelve pointer through the puckerbrush, l will let him walk, hoping for a clean shot later.
My farm is 75 per cent puckerbrush, woods and scrub. Lots of deer get a second chance but my conscience is clear.

 

[adcoch1]

270 will work great for hunting deer wherever, but the rifle might not be as handy due to length. I'd use 150 grn bullets, mostly because you don't need hyperspeed at close range. The 270, while not my personal favorite, is a VERY versatile cartridge!

 

[FL-NC]

If it will work in open country, it will work in the thick stuff. It is probably more gun than you need, but it will work fine if its handy for offhand shots from wherever you are shooting and you are good with it. "Brush" country rounds" are a myth, except as it applies to the shorter ranges and desire for shorter, lighter rifles- since that is all that is needed. Don't shoot through anything between you and your game except air.

 

[1stmarine]

One cannot rely on probability but in something that by design works much better in thick forest and
shooting through branches and bushes.
Hit a couple of branches and the 6mm, 6.5, 270, 7mm even 30 cal will end up deflecting like crazy.

Fast moving calibers and the lighter they are the more ineffective they are in brush country. This is a fact.

Of course this depends on how thick the area is but one can perhaps move for a better angle,... or not.
Official brush guns send bad ass grain like those used by professional hunters who cannot afford deflection
at the risk of them or their clients being eaten or mauled to death.
One can afford to loose a wounded deer but still not nice.

That is why 35, 375, 416, 458 and 50 cal and larger offer a plethora of officially designated brush calibers
some even pretty exclusive brush guns but some other popular and inexpensive yet very effective for this role.
This doesn't mean the 270 and many others are not good. It means these are special circumstances where
grain is preferred vs. speed.

Again the shotgun should not be overlooked, some can be pretty accurate so it doesn't have to be anything too
special to be more effective.

 

[JeeperCreeper]

The probability that your bullet hits brush in the first place is proportional to the frontal area of the bullet. A 12 gauge slug is 6.5 times as likely to hit a piece of brush as a 270 bullet is (because it has 6.5 times the frontal area).

I'm mostly just teasing, and I was thinking the comparison was between 130 and 150 grain .270 bullet.
Regardless, I see your point about the frontal area size, and it's been a while since I've taken a stats class, but I don't think size is a direct translation to probability.

For example, it may be 6.5 times more likely if firing in an infinite and random direction with infinite and random obstacles in those directions. However, you'd probably have to compare the radius difference between 12 gauge and .270 as a deviation from midline, assuming both had identical trajectories (they dont). So if you look at their width from a midline, R, its 12 gauge at 0.365 in and .270 is 0.135in. That means that 12 gauge is only 2.7 times deviated from .270. But even that takes into account that the brush is on the midline.

Basically what I'm saying is, I don't remember math but I'm pretty sure a 12 gauge isn't 6.5 times more likely to hit a random leaf than a .270.

 

[22250Rem]

270 is a great open country cartridge. I've seen 'em strut their stuff at long distance on things like Wyoming pronghorn. Now; having said that I probably can't even imagine the amount of deer harvested since about 1925 when it came out, by 270's in the eastern woods where a 30-30 would suffice. Bottom line is: They work.

 

[MidRoad]

Youll be fine. Just try to pick clean/clear shots .Our woods in upstate NY are real thick too.I had the same rifle as you and it worked very well. Ive been the victim of a few branch/trees that I failed to see before taking the shot. Doesnt matter if youre using a .243 or a .577 nitro express (yes some may indeed "plow through" brush better), deflection can happen to any round. There have been many theories and tests conducted about light fast vs big slow bullets. Each have been proven to work better than the other....the only true theory is to minimize objects intersecting the path of your bullet. Enjoy the new rifle

 

[cdb1]

One cannot rely on probability but in something that by design works much better in thick forest and
shooting through branches and bushes.
Hit a couple of branches and the 6mm, 6.5, 270, 7mm even 30 cal will end up deflecting like crazy.

Fast moving calibers and the lighter they are the more ineffective they are in brush country. This is a fact.

Heavier, slower, bigger diameter, round nose bullets may deflect less, but the key point is they still deflect. Deflection will almost certainly cause a complete miss or a hit in a non vital area no matter what cartridge is used. So your point is moot.

To OP, I hunted for 30+ years almost exclusively with a .270. Depending on whether I'm hunting my land, other familly members or friends land, the terrain can be wide open with no trees, heavy woods and everything in between. Never felt handicapped in the woods with a .270.

I'd use the most accurate bullet your rifle shoots, bullet weight doesn't matter for deer. I do prefer cup and core bullets on deer.

 

[GooseGestapo]

.270 will do just fine.
Hunting in Georgia is little different than Pennsylvania. Thick woods, open fields, power line, gas line r.o.w., clear cuts.
The 130gr Remington Corlokts and Winchester Powerpoints are extremely popular.
Sight-in 1.5" high at 100yds, go hunt!
No need fo fancy trick bullets.
I prefer good old Hornady 130gr Interloks and Sierra ProHunters.

 

[1stmarine]

Heavier, slower, bigger diameter, round nose bullets may deflect less, but the key point is they still deflect. Deflection will almost certainly cause a complete miss or a hit in a non vital area no matter what cartridge is used. So your point is moot.

To OP, I hunted for 30+ years almost exclusively with a .270. Depending on whether I'm hunting my land, other familly members or friends land, the terrain can be wide open with no trees, heavy woods and everything in between. Never felt handicapped in the woods with a .270.

I'd use the most accurate bullet your rifle shoots, bullet weight doesn't matter for deer. I do prefer cup and core bullets on deer.

cdb1,
At the average distance lets say 25 to 50 yards a larger bore over 35/375 moving slower and with more grain will cut through pretty substantial
twigs and branches (even 1" diameter) w/o significant deviation from the projected point of impact.
All other calibers mentioned will be deflected to the point that might miss the target entirely and/or keyhole.
The 270 is a great caliber like many other popular ones but it is not a brush caliber to shoot through thick forest.
Our personal preferences, likes and dislikes, do not affect the science of physics and change these facts.

 

[1stmarine]

I want to make sure when people say Brush they understand what this means.
It means shooting through brush, branches and bushes not avoiding them. If one can, one should avoid them but when talking about true brush we are concentrating in the hunting situation when this cannot be avoided.
If one is in thick forests but can find clearings or his/her blind or stand doesn't have
any obstructions in any direction then the brush idea does not apply.

The key is momentum that is not energy, two different things, related, but different.
A diving kamikaze plane has a lot of energy (Speed, aside from the explosives) and a Train Engine has a lot of momentum (mass).,

I don't have pictures nor videos so I did a quick search to see if I could find some tests on youtube.
I don't really like these cup cake youtubers all over the web but found something that, while not scientific, it gives a pretty fair representation
of what is a brush caliber. I am pretty sure there is better material for those youtube fans.

 

[Macchina]

This is an interesting video that while not scientific it does show that a bigger (heavier) bullet is much less affected shooting through brush.
I too thought it was all a myth before watching this video, however he shoots enough rounds to have me convinced that a lightweight high speed bullet is far more affected by brush than a slow and heavy round.

The .223 in the video was tumbling after shooting brush, the same brush that was easily shot through with a 45/70.

 

[Macchina]

WOW, we posted the same exact video at the same time, your reply was not there when I started typing :-O

I watched the whole video a couple months ago. It may not "prove" anything scientifically but it's the reason I'm bringing my .44 Mag 1894 instead of my 30-06 to a very brushy island I'm hunting in a month...

 

[Offfhand]

Hit a couple of branches and the 6mm, 6.5, 270, 7mm even 30 cal will end up deflecting like crazy.

Fast moving calibers and the lighter they are the more ineffective they are in brush country. This is a fact.

It's always interesting to learn where these "facts" originate. But the creators of such facts seem forever to remain as elusive as the facts themselves.