3-Gun Options

[jatienza]

Competition Gear Options

I'm in the process of putting together an AR-15 for several types of competition. I went with a Magpul UBR stock to balance out the 18" barrel on the rifle. Also, there is zero rattle on the rifle.

I plan on shooting 3-gun (5 yds - 300 yds)/tactical carbine (5 yds -100 yds)/Sniper Challenge (100 yds -600 yds) with this rifle. Therefore, I need to be able to easily modify the rifle for each competition. I went with quick detach on everything so I could modify the rifle for each type of competition.

Any comments on the competition rig and scope options would be greatly appreciated.

3-Gun Option #1:

- Primary Scope: TA33R-8: 3x30 Trijicon ACOG
- Weight w/ Loaded 30-round Magazine: 10.3 lbs.

Question:

- Should I change this option to a TA11 3.5x35 Trijicon ACOG for a greater field of view?
- What type of reticle?
- Should I run a combat sling?



3-Gun Option #2:

- Primary Scope: Leupold Mark 4 1.5-5x20mm MR/T M2 Illum. Reticle Riflescope
- CQB Sigt: JP Enterprises Short Sight
- Weight w/ Loaded 30-round Magazine: 11.1 lbs.

Questions:

- Should I lose the back-up iron sights to save weight?






3-Gun Option #3:

- Primary Scope: Nightforce 3.5-15x50 F1 (.1 mil/MLR)
- CQB Sigt: JP Enterprises short sight
- Weight w/ Loaded 30-round Magazine: 13.6 lbs.




3-Gun Option #4 (Open Division Rig):

Primary Scope: Nightforce 3.5-15x50 F1 (.1 mil/MLR)
CQB Scope: Aimpoint Micro T-1
Weight w/ Loaded 30-round Magazine: 13.9 lbs.

Questions:

- This rig weighs nearly 14 lbs. I have a Vickers Combat sling on order to handle the extra weight. Too heavy?
- Should I lose the bipod to save weight?




Pelican Case:



Larue Tactical Upper/Lower with Geissele Two-Stage Match Trigger & Colt LPK:



Larue Tactical 18" Barrel with 12" Free-floating Quad Rail:



Troy Rear BUIS:



Troy Tritium Front Sight:



Atlas Bipod with Larue Tactical Mount:

 

[taliv]

nice pics, nice hardware

1. lose the bipod
2. using a sling depends on match rules. some require it. others will let you transition to a pistol if your rifle is slung. if you don't need it, get rid of it.
3. either of your first two optics are great, or the T1. for 300yrd, you do not need any special reticle. just one you can acquire quickly. drop is only 6-8", so just hold on the top of most targets, or slightly over them. don't even think about screwing around with a scope and elevation knobs. and definitely don't haul an extra 2 lbs of nightforce around. keep the BUIS, but lose that short sight


edit, btw, welcome to thr

 

[Lonely Raven]

Wow, this thread is practically porn. Great lookin' rifle there.

 

[gtmtnbiker98]

Nice taste in both weaponry and optics.

 

[Justin]

Of all of the setups you show, I'd go with the first one for shooting in tactical division.

 

[Jeff82]

Run what's fastest and most accurate for you. (Means: get out there and test them!)

 

[jatienza]

Thanks for the comments guys. I am planning on shooting tactical division for now until I get my feet wet.

I guess I will start practicing with option #1 & #2 and see which one I like the best. On option #2, I was thinking about setting the magnification on the primary scope on 5x and using the JP short sight for close in work? I guess based on your response that I should just adjust the scope magnification from 5x to 1.5x on close in work.

I also have the option to utilize a TA11 3.5x35 Trijicon ACOG. Wouldn't the Trijicon TA11 give me a larger field of view (quicker target aquisition) over the TA33R-8 3x30? Any comments on which scope is the better choice?

Here's my handgun (20+1) and shotgun (8+1) setup. I plan on shooting iron sights on my handgun and shotgun.



FNH Self Loading Police (SLP) Mark-I Tactical Shotgun (12-Ga):




Fiber-optic Front Sight for Quick Target Aquisition:
(No ghost ring to obstruct my peripheral vision)




Sig Sauer X-Five Tactical (9mm):

 

[Floppy_D]

Welcome to THR, and way to make an entrance. I don't play 3 gun so I can provide nothing useful... but nice gear and great pictures, keep 'em coming!

 

[1KPerDay]

More cool pics. I assume the sig mag is stock? Or can you get the mag extensions aftermarket?

 

[jatienza]

Original Quote from 1KPerDay:

"More cool pics. I assume the sig mag is stock? Or can you get the mag extensions aftermarket?"

It is an aftermarket extended magazine manufactured by Mec-Gar. If after market magazines are not legal, I could always go with the factory magazines (14+1). I know the overall height of my handgun/magazine meets the maximum height restrictions. Any comments on 3-gun rules regarding after market magazines?

 

[tiratore]

Awesome photos, and the gear, YES! (as I wipe the drool off my chin here

Trying to get into AR right now and I found a good deal on a new ...
LMT Defender 2000, NEW, 10.5" barrel, Standard S/A bolt carrier group, Marked 5.56, barrel twist 1:7, barrels crome lined, SOPMOD Stock, Two Stage Trigger, Ergo Grip $1500.

Not sure if La Rue has a dealer in Canada though.

 

[Zak Smith]

First answers:

- Should I change this option to a TA11 3.5x35 Trijicon ACOG for a greater field of view?

It would be a moderate improvement, but might not be worth the money for the upgrade.

- What type of reticle?

Donut or chevron.

- Should I run a combat sling?

You should have a sling you can use if you need it, but most 3-Gun stages will be run without a sling.

- Should I lose the back-up iron sights to save weight?

For 3-Gun, the BUIS serve no purpose. On the other hand, weight is not really a consideration either.

Answer to unasked question 1: The NF is too big for the rifle, and overkill for anything you'll have in a 3-Gun match, even the RM3G nationals. A 3-10x or 3-12x scope on the compact side is the most you'd ever want for a match like that.

Answer to unasked question 2: The MRT and the 3x ACOG have overlapping functionality. You'd be better served by either of those (or the TA11 ACOG or Shot Dot, etc) and then something like a 3.5-10x or 3-12x scope for any long-range 3-Gun matches (e.g. RM3G) or a sniper style match.

- Should I lose the bipod to save weight?

Setup #3 is clearly a Tactical division setup (close-range iron sights with optic) but you show it with a bipod. Bipods are not allowed in most incarnations of Tactical division. Also, weight is not really a concern. Also x2, you want a bipod that can be deployed very fast one-handed. The spring-loaded harris bipods with a piece of para-cord connecting the legs (so opening one leg will open the other, or a tug on the rope will do the same) is the usual setup.

Answer to unasked question 3: you should have a good 3-Gun type muzzle brake on the muzzle, not a flash hider.

I would also recommend a round fore-end for practical shooting vs. a railed setup. This is because grasping the tube for pointability and bracing against objects and barricades is very common and most people find it easier to do witha round fore-end, like the JP or PRI tubes.

With regard to magazines, the most common rule for magazine capacity is 140mm for double-stack mags in Tactical/Limited.

Also, an AR-15 in .223 will be problematic for sniper/long-range matches. As some matches, the caliber is not even allowed. For those where it is, you will be at a big disadvantage to even the .308 shooters (who are themselves at a pretty big disadvantage to the 6.5mm and 7mm shooters).

 

[jatienza]

I have two options for the sniper challenge matches.

Option #1 (AR-15 Platform - .223, Semi-Auto):




Option #2 (Custom Remington 700 - .308 Bolt Action):

The rifle scope pictured is a Nightforce 12-42x56mm NXS. I used this scope for bench rest shooting.

The rules for the Sniper Challenge do not allow the use of range finders. Therefore, I plan on replacing the scope pictured with the Nightforce 3.5-15x50 F1. The Nightorce F1 will allow me to accurately range distances over the entire magnification range. My local match regulations allow .223 or .308 in the tactical carbine and sniper challenge matches.

 

[jatienza]

Zak Smith,

Excellent answers to my questions.

Thank you...

 

[Zak Smith]

There are probably at least a dozen matches that have "Sniper Challenge" in their name. Without knowing the specific match and rules you're referring to, it's hard to give a specific recommendation. However, for the practical long-range rifle matches I am familiar with, a short (looks like 18"?) .308 is almost as bad a choice as a .223.

-z

 

[jatienza]

Zak Smith,

Thanks for the honest answers. By the way, it's a 20" heavy barrel. It shoots .19 moa at 100 yards with match grade hand loads. The distances for my local matches are 100 yds - 600 yds... I thought it would be easier to maneuver with a 20" barrel.

 

[Hoser]

Arms Bipod with Larue Tactical Mount

pssst, thats an Atlas. Arms bad. Atlas good.

The Atlas is a great choice for any match where you dont have to deploy the bipod in a hurry. For matches like that, use a Harris where the spring loaded legs will help.

Lose the back up irons and side mounted irons. They just get in the way.

If you are trying to shed weight, go with a regular A2 buttstock. Not nearly as cool looking, but solid and light.

I like square float tubes like the LaRue above and I use one. Gives me a solid flat surface to hold on to. And chicks dig it. I also use PRI tubes.

 

[jatienza]

Thanks for the comments guys... I put your comments to good use.

I shot my first tactical carbine match this morning. Last night I decided to shed some weight on the rig by making the following revisions:

- Add ArmaLite lower receiver with a Magpul CTR stock.
- Remove BUIS
- Utilized a Trijicon TA33R-8: 3x30 ACOG
- Removed the bipod.



I dropped the weight from nearly 14 lbs to 8 lbs 11 oz:



Tactical Carbine Range Report:

I had a blast at the Tactical Carbine match! Next match is in one month.

Due to the muddy conditions the match was limited to 50 yards.

Trijicon TA33R-8: 3x30 ACOG Review:

Due to the shortened target distances, I zeroed the Trijicon at 25 yards. With that zero, I had to be very careful to shoot at the top of the A zone target on shots inside 25 yards and aim at the bottom of the A zone target beyond 25 yards. When I did my part the shots were dead on.

With 3x magnification, your peripheral vision is limited on close quarter shots. It is next to impossible to shoot with both eyes open on close in work because of the difference in magnification between your left and right eye even with the Bindon Aiming Concept (BAC) system.

The red chevron reticle was extremely fast on target aquisition once you got the target in your sight picture. The reticle really shined at 50 yards. All you had to do was aim at the bottom of the A zone and it was spot on.

Alternative Set up:

Next month the match will extend to 300 yards and I plan on running the same setup, but with a Leupold Mark IV 1.5-5x20mm scope zeroed at 50 yards. This will allow me to be zeroed at 50 yards and 200 yards.

I plan on using the Leupold 5x magnification scope on 25 yards and longer. On close in work, I plan on running either the Aimpoint mircro T-1 or iron sights. IMHO, having the ability to shoot with both eyes open on close quarter shots is worth the extra weight of a second optic. You can also zero the second optic at 15 yards and aim straight at your target on close in work. With the small target setups with hostages in the bakground in the close quarter portion (10 yard targets while shooting around barrels) of the match, you had to make the correct hold over or you shot under the target and hit the hostage. That's 10 seconds!

I always rest the quad hand rail with my left hand so the second optic mounted on the right hand side doesn't get in the way. I'm thinking with a secondary short sight, target aquistion on close in work will give you the best peripheral vision resulting in faster target aquisition. A 1x secondary scope like an Aimpoint micro T-1, will allow you to shoot with both eyes open also.

If I decide not to go with a second optic, I can always dial back the magnification on the Leupold to 1.5x. The Leupold reticle also has graduation marks for windage. I think these two features make the Leupold a better choice as a primary scope over the Trijicon. Based on my first match experience, the Nightforce 1-4 x 24 NXS seems to be an excellent choice for a single scope.

 

[jatienza]

Original Quote by Zak Smith:

".308 is almost as bad a choice as a .223."

By the way, the last Sniper Challenge match was won with a .223! The most common caliber in the match was .308... A .223 semi-auto allows you to get off more shots than a bolt action gun. Score is based on maximum number of hits within a fixed time limit.

 

[Zak Smith]

the last Sniper Challenge match was won with a .223

There are probably at least a dozen matches that have "Sniper Challenge" in their name. Without knowing the specific match and rules you're referring top

It's a bad choice for winning matches that are about practical long-range rifle shooting. I have been to some "Sniper" matches that could have been won with AR-15's.

 

[jatienza]

Zak,

The current stock on the Remington 700 must be fitted to accept the new bottom metal with detachable box magazine. Therefore, I was thinking about running the Larue Tactical setup in the upcoming Sniper Challenge (100-600 yds):



Nightforce 3.5-15x50 F1 Reticle Picture @ 15x (Distance-100 yds):



Here's a picture of a three shot group @ 100 yards. There was a 5 mph wind in your face with the wind gusting to 6-7 mph. I pegged the 4 o'clock shot twice. The target is an 8" diameter circle. I was shooting Black Hills 69 grain moly-coated match grade ammo. If you look at the picture above you can see the target was free-floating while mounted to strings. The target was moving slightly around in the wind.

I was thinking about trying 77 grain next. That would help with wind drift. Do I have a chance with this setup?

 

[Zak Smith]

There are probably at least a dozen matches that have "Sniper Challenge" in their name. Without knowing the specific match and rules you're referring to

Do I have a chance with this setup?

Well it depends on the courses of fire, the other shooters' skill and equipment, and your skill.

Here are some objective numbers

_Bullet_           _BC_ _MV_         0     200     400     600 | YARDS
7RM 180 26        0.684 2950 >    0.00    1.71    7.15   16.87 | wind (inches)
243 115 DTAC 26   0.585 3100 >    0.00    1.87    7.90   18.79 | wind (inches)
260 139 26        0.615 2900 >    0.00    1.96    8.24   19.56 | wind (inches)
308 155 24        0.508 2900 >    0.00    2.39   10.20   24.53 | wind (inches)
308 175 24        0.51* 2700 >    0.00    2.72   11.62   28.08 | wind (inches)
308 175 20        0.51* 2550 >    0.00    2.95   12.63   30.60 | wind (inches)
223 77 18         0.36* 2630 >    0.00    3.96   17.44   43.87 | wind (inches)

7RM 180 26        0.684 2950 >   -0.00    0.33    1.54    3.02 | drop (mil)
243 115 DTAC 26   0.585 3100 >   -0.00    0.28    1.39    2.81 | drop (mil)
260 139 26        0.615 2900 >   -0.00    0.36    1.64    3.25 | drop (mil)
308 155 24        0.508 2900 >   -0.00    0.37    1.73    3.48 | drop (mil)
308 175 24        0.51* 2700 >   -0.00    0.48    2.09    4.17 | drop (mil)
308 175 20        0.51* 2550 >   -0.00    0.57    2.41    4.78 | drop (mil)
223 77 18         0.36* 2630 >   -0.00    0.56    2.49    5.21 | drop (mil)

 

[jatienza]

Based on those numbers, drop doesn't appear to be an issue. If it is not windy and I can take extra shots with a .223 semi-auto, I should be ok. I'll have fun trying anyway. Based on the last local Sniper Challenge, 7mm will not be prevalent anyway. If I do my part, I should be able to hang with the .308's.

LOL... Now I want a 7RM.

 

[Zak Smith]

Since 2006, the Steel Safari has been won by: .260, 6.5-06, and 7mm WSM, and either 6-284 or 6.5-284 (can't remember if the one guy changed chamberings that year). The best .308 shooters placed no higher than 7th place in 2008 and 2009 (and they were using 23-24" barrels with a 155 Lapua Scenar at approx 2900 fps); in each of those years, the rest of the top 10 were not shooting .308.

 

[jatienza]

Zak,

Could you recommend a good rifle for the money for precision shooting?

Thanks!